Question of the week #14

[treonb]

The writers of this show seem to have a love for full formal names when it comes to the KGB side of the Cold War. Philip is always Philip, never Phil, and Elizabeth is never Liz or Beth either--and this despite the fact that Russian names all inherently have multiple alternate forms that everyone simply uses as a matter of course. The same goes for Robert, the other Directorate S illegal who we've met, and for that matter, for Gregory (who's not Russian, but whose own culture isn't exactly known for its lack of informal names).

Given this, the question of the week is a two-parter: one, what do you think the writers are up to with this? And two, any thoughts on an explanation for this that works within the world of the show?

You can expect spoilers for the entire first season in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[treonb]

1. My instinct is to say that this is not intentional, but with this show it's hard to tell. In any case, I'd be seriously impressed if this was thought out.

2. Having said that, my theory is that this is over-correction, exactly because nicknames are such an integral part of Russian culture. And these things are so culture oriented anyway, it's dangerous territory to start using them.

Have we ever seen Gregory's team call him by name?

[katiac]

Good question. I think they must've known Gregory's name (since they led Stan straight to him), but I don't remember if anyone said it on screen.

I see it as an unwillingness to let her guard down for Elizabeth. Like she'd probably enjoy variations on her Russian nickname. I believe on the tape we hear her mother call her either "Nadya" or "Nadenka" or something similar (can't tell, don't speak Russian) and also later in the tape, the more formal "Nadezhda." (Would LOVE to know what her mom usually calls her.) But allowing nicknames for her American cover is one step closer to accepting it as "her" and that feels very dangerous to Elizabeth, completely the opposite of what she wants to do.

Philip is the opposite. He uses "Phil" at multiple points--with Stan, even introducing himself to Irina. It doesn't seem to bug him because he's not bothered by the idea of himself as Philip instead of Mischa. It's a great little indication of their characters and I love how the show sneaks in little tidbits like that.

I do find some of the names picked . . . peculiar. Like "Paige" wasn't really a popular baby name yet, so they couldn't say they picked it because of that.

[jae]

Her mother definitely calls her 'Nadya' on the tape (and I mean, there's no way her mother wouldn't call her that, given the way names work in Russian).

I like your theory about why she doesn't use short forms of names!

-J

[katiac]

See, that's what I found so funny... I can definitely hear her calling her Nadya/Nadenka at the beginning (if you're sure it's "Nadya" I may go back and edit that one spot in my fan fiction... I'd thought it was "Nadenka" but I have such a problem with the Russian pronunciations), but then there's also a place near the end where it's an obvious "Nadezhda." I found it odd that she would call her the nickname the first time, then the formal the second... hard to know what they would've used for all the time.

[jae]

No, no, I wasn't correcting you--it is 'Nadya' at the beginning and 'Nadezhda' at one later point. I just meant 'Nadya' would be the clear default for her mother; it's 'Nadezhda' that would be the marked (i.e. unusual) form, used to make a point in that moment.

-J

[jae]

I haven't been able to find a place where Gregory's team calls him by name, sadly.

Both Elizabeth and Philip definitely never refer to him (whether to his face or in conversation about him) as anything else but 'Gregory', though.

-J

[treonb]

Ok, because for all we know, Gregory might have a nickname, but Elizabeth never uses it, and therefore by extension neither does Philip.

Does it make sense that it's a code name?

[jae]

Ok, because for all we know, Gregory might have a nickname, but Elizabeth never uses it, and therefore by extension neither does Philip.

*nodding* That works for me. But WHY would Elizabeth never use it? I like katiac's reasoning behind why she doesn't use short forms for herself or for Philip, but why would that extend to Gregory?

-J

[katiac]

Fascinating question. Throwing ideas out...

Would calling him "Greg" invite him to call her "Liz" and/or bring up discussion on the subject? Elizabeth seems to operate a lot on pushing stuff out of her head and preferring not to think about topics that are uncomfortable. This would be a big one.

Does she project some idea of how she feels onto Gregory? Like does she prefer to think that he would be as uncomfortable "settling in" to the idea of nicknames as she is because she connects that with being okay with the American way of doing things? Interestingly, she and Gregory can't really connect at all in a Russian sense, like she can with Phil, so I got the sense they connected in more of an anti-American sense, or at least that they both were so unhappy with the way things were in the US. Gregory having that same level of discomfort she does with being there would be something she'd connect with, nicknames just being another example, IMHO.

[jae]

Thank you for helping with this (and yes, in case you were wondering, this whole question was totally about me outsourcing the brainstorming about my conundrum about Gregory's name to you folks *g*)!

I guess it seems to me that if others were calling Gregory 'Greg' but SHE called him 'Gregory', that would draw attention to it rather than inviting a nickname for her own cover name. And then there's the fact that she would have initially met Gregory under a more temporary name anyway (like, she wouldn't have gotten involved in the SCLC under the name 'Elizabeth Jennings'). So the first option doesn't quite work for me, although I could still be talked into it.

The second one, though...maybe! I guess I have to figure out what that would have looked like to him, though, if she was introduced to him as Greg but she called him Gregory. And what the conversation they would have had about that would have been like.

-J

[jae]

I'm not sure what you mean by a code name. We do know from the conversations about him at the FBI that his real name is Gregory Thomas.

-J

[treonb]

you're right.. so scratch that idea.

I like katiac's reasoning too, especially as I now realize that Philip actually does use nicknames, and from what I can see, never actually introduces himself as anything other than Phil.

In the case of Gregory, I'd say it might be Gregory's side of things. Nicknames are very personal, and if he never introduced himself as 'Greg' than Elizabeth won't be the one to take that step.

[jae]

I just have such a hard time imagining that coming out of the culture he was raised in, he was always called 'Gregory' by everyone. That would be nearly as weird as a Russian never using short forms of their own names (which never, ever, ever happens). So that implies to me that it's Elizabeth who initiated the long form of the name with him. I just have to figure out why, and what that felt like, and what they talked about surrounding it.

katiac's reasoning on why she uses the long form of her own cover name is a great place to start, though (thanks, katiac!).

-J

[sistermagpie]

Gregory may have been called Greg at different points in his life but by adulthood have preferred Gregory and had others call him that too. Like maybe his mother always called him Gregory but his friends called him Greg or G or some other unrelated name. But it wouldn't be that unusual by the time he was an adult to insist on Gregory. Like Malcolm X was Malcolm rather than Mal. (At least I think he was Malcolm to everyone.)

[jae]

Like maybe his mother always called him Gregory but his friends called him Greg or G or some other unrelated name.

Ooh, ooh, that might work! Hmmm, thinking. :)

Thank you all for your input! This has been a real help.

-J

[katiac]

And to go along with SM, I think some people just prefer the full version of their name as adults, even if they weren't called that as a child. Everyone called my parents by nicknames their entire childhood. In fact, they still call them those nicknames. My parents hate those nicknames and never use them themselves. They just prefer the more "grown up" sound of the full names rather than the kiddy versions (and they do have names where the nicknames sound like children's names.)

I could also imagine that Gregory might have some want/need to be taken seriously and heard because of his background, and might like the stateliness of the full name. Philip, by contrast, loves to fit in and does it like a fish swims. So in my head, when he got to the US and started hearing other regular guys calling him Phil, or calling each other Joe and Steve, he would've liked the idea of Phil.

[sistermagpie]

I can see that being another thing that bugged Elizabeth and not Philip, the fact that they've probably had people shorten their name without thinking about it because their names have such obvious shortened forms. For Philip he probably liked it when guys he spoke to carelessly called him Phil because they couldn't be bothered with the whole name, and so he started using it. For Elizabeth she probably would take it as pushy if somebody casually called her "Liz" or "Beth" or "El" at the playgroup. So now she always introduces herself as Elizabeth and Philip's right there with the "Call me Phil" introduction.

[katiac]

For Philip he probably liked it when guys he spoke to carelessly called him Phil because they couldn't be bothered with the whole name, and so he started using it.

Yes, that's exactly how I always saw it. Like he probably went by Philip exclusively back in Russia, but once he got over to the US, he would just be soaking everything in, picking up those subtle variations in speech and habits.

[jae]

That totally makes sense!

-J

[katiac]

I could see it happening this way, where that was the first introduction and there was no need to go anywhere else in Elizabeth's mind.

And really, I think a lot of their relationship, by its nature, is based on projection. It's based on that very real way they connected, but then Gregory clearly projects how he feels about Elizabeth's family (that she would sacrifice the kids, leave them to run off with him) onto how he thinks Elizabeth feels. Elizabeth does the same thing, which is why it's so hard for her to get behind the idea that he's not going to want to go to Moscow. She's projecting that he feels the same way that there's nowhere better than Russia, that being back there after a long, faithful service would be a reward (and probably her dream.) Because they could only see each other sporadically, they would probably spend what little time they had reaffirming the one area they DID connect, rather than poking a lot into uncomfortable topics and potentially uncovering something that spoils the perfect little escape aspect of the affair for her.

And so since the nickname thing could potentially stir up some uncomfortable questions for Elizabeth, I could see why she would prefer just to not think about it, and enjoy the few hours they had together and get a break from all the uncomfortable questions she has to deal with in her daily life. Elizabeth, no matter who she's with, has the tendency to shy away from things that make her uncomfortable emotionally, only confronting them when she's forced to.

[katiac]

How funny, I was just recently ruminating over the name issue while working on a chapter! They're so good about having the Russian names used in their various forms, nicknames, formal names, etc, but rarely do we see the American names done the same.

I think Philip is the an exception, though. Stan calls him 'Phil' all the time, and I believe in the scene where they meet Stan, Philip introduces himself as the same. I see that as indicative of his character--he slides into the skin of Philip Jennings quite easily and eventually starts to become him, identifying with him more than Mischa, where with Elizabeth, she's always putting on an act. She wouldn't relax and be "Liz" because that would be one little step closer to growing too comfortable as Elizabeth Jennings, when in her mind, she's always Nadezhda, playing a part in service to her country. And I don't think she'd call Philip "Phil" because that would kind of speak to the same fear she's had all along that he's getting too comfortable in their "fake" life too.

And now I'm trying to remember if Elizabeth called Robert "Rob" during the car scene... I need to rewatch! But I definitely agree with you that they've shown a fondness for formal names... an interesting topic to think about. They also call Matthew Beeman "Matthew" most (if not all, not sure) of the time, even though that's a name that's so commonly shortened. And a lot of the names they choose are ones that don't really have/need nicknames: Paige, Henry, Sandra, Nina, Claudia, Frank, Martha, Clark.

[treonb]

You're right, Philip does introduce himself as 'Phil': to Stan, in The Clock, and to 'Anne' in Duty and Honor.

Actually, I'm not sure he ever introduces himself as Philip. Does he?

[katiac]

Good question... now I'm trying to think back on it!

[treonb]

I admit I'm cheating - I'm going through the subtitles :-) Philip is used very often, though, so it's harder to tell.

[katiac]

Indeed! I always think of him as Philip in my head simply because that's what Elizabeth calls him.

[treonb]

And now I'm trying to remember if Elizabeth called Robert "Rob" during the car scene...

Robert is referred to only as Rob in the pilot, though that's only once in the car. In 'Gregory' he's never called anything else other than Robert.

[jae]

Thanks for checking this!

Who calls him 'Rob' in the pilot?

-J

[katiac]

I believe, Elizabeth in the car.

(But then, there are some things about the show I think are just continuity errors. They have that whole thing with the earrings and Paige, but she has pierced ears in the pilot. Or how they put Elizabeth's age as 42 in the pilot, but 37 in episode 3.)

[treonb]

Yeah, pilots are tricky, because the production team doesn't have the incentive then to actually map everything out.

[katiac]

Yes, and then the showrunners have been wonderfully candid about how they made a few mistakes, like putting Reagan speech from December, 1981 in the 7th episode, but then having the season end in May, 1981 (and the calendar says April, 1981.) So it's one of those things where I always have to look at the details given, decide which ones have to be thrown out to make the rest fit and just go with it.

[jae]

*nodding* And as another aspect of the age issue, there's the bit about how Elizabeth's father supposedly fell at the Battle of Stalingrad, which would have been too early in the war for her to have been two when he died. I explain this away by saying that she thinks it was in the Battle of Stalingrad when he died, but that's only because she wouldn't have had the opportunity to know the details of the history well enough, and he actually died fighting at the banks of the Oder in eastern Germany, in 1945. (I try to work with the various errors of canon unless they make it impossible. *g*)

-J

[sistermagpie]

I wonder if we could do a reverse Gregory here. If Philip was the person who dealt more with Robert and called him Rob all the time, Elizabeth might have picked that up the way Philip would have picked up Gregory. Even though both of them also worked with this other guy.

This makes me remember the conversation b/w Phil and Rob in the pilot which I love, about the Japanese karate team.

[treonb]

The only problem is that Philip only calls him Robert later on. , and really never refers to him as Rob at all. Maybe when he discovers there might be a problem he doesn't want to call him Rob anymore.

[sistermagpie]

You're right! There goes that theory. Maybe Elizabeth was just stressed in the pilot!

[sistermagpie]

It is kind of fascinating. I can definitely imagine Elizabeth setting the precedent for no nicknames at home. It would be yet another way of not "settling in" to this identity. But there is also something interesting about them not giving their kids names with ready nicknames (Paige) or not using the ones that are there (Henry) as a substitute for what they would do in Russia. I wonder if it adds a level of formality in their mind or if it just doesn't translate because the names and culture is foreign anyway.

Like in, I think, Katiac's story where they choose names without Russian equivalents so they won't be tempted to ever accidentally slip out a "Sasha" or something.

With Gregory I could imagine him being the type of person who was always known as Gregory where the name almost served as a nickname in itself.

I think Nadezhda is a name with fewer nickname forms in Russian? Because it's also a word, like its English counterpart, Hope?

[jae]

With Gregory I could imagine him being the type of person who was always known as Gregory where the name almost served as a nickname in itself.

Interesting! Can you expand on what you mean by this?

I think Nadezhda is a name with fewer nickname forms in Russian?

There are actually several diminutive forms: 'Nadya' is the one everyone uses by rote, and then there are several more that can be used in more intimate relationships.

-J

[sistermagpie]

Thanks for the info! I knew there had to be some diminutives--it seems like it would be impossible for a name in Russian not to have them. I just remember somebody somewhere saying it was a little different--maybe just in the way those forms were originally arrived at or something.

Interesting! Can you expand on what you mean by this?

Mostly I was just thinking about how in English a nickname tends to be more about the person than the name itself. A person named Robert isn't automatically called Rob or Bob in certain situations. It's more usually that the person just "is" a Bob or a Bobby or a Robert. I find it hard to think of my brother as his "real" name, or even the most common nickname for his real name because I've never called him either; he once told someone they had a wrong number because they asked for my real name. That sort of thing.

So I could see even in a culture where most people went by first names/shortened first names or nicknames Gregory might become known as Gregory and nothing else. Like in The Wire there's a lot of characters with nicknames--Cheese, Bodie, Poot, Stringer. But then there's characters known by their real first names like Omar where the real name carries so much respect it becomes a street name in itself, if that makes sense.

But again with Elizabeth I can imagine her just by default being slow to use any American nicknames. She says Stan because nobody uses anything else but she might prefer full names in general. Heh. She might even privately for a long time have considered American nicknames kind of stupid and weak.

[jae]

Yeah, you're right--English names do work differently from Russian ones on that front. (Like your brother, I'm another person who never gets referred to by the long form of her name, actually.) I guess I just have such a hard time imagining that Gregory would always have been Gregory to everyone, though. He's just not that formal a guy, and such a thing would have been utterly bizarre in his culture (like, if 'Omar' were a name with a common short form, I can't imagine that his inner circle wouldn't have called him that). So it seems very likely to me that this practice came from Elizabeth, and that Philip picked up on calling him that because Elizabeth did. I really do like the idea of her being slow to use American nicknames...

-J

[katiac]

Good questions. (It was a different story--can't remember whose--but I remember reading that part too and found it an interesting twist!) I could see Elizabeth being the one who kind of sets the tone for names being so formal with Paige and Henry. I imagine just like with her not wanting to call Philip "Phil" and give him that little encouragement of settling in to their cover identities, she would for a long time tell herself the same thing about Henry and Paige. Like I think she over time started connecting with the kids more, but it was an uphill battle from her original mindset that it's all just an act.

From what I read, Nadezhda does have fewer nicknames. I actually had a hard time trying to figure out what Elizabeth's mother would've called her (and may go back and edit in my own story if I can ever get a good answer.) Someone told me "Nadenka" or "Nadushka" could be used, and "Nadya" as a shorter version. Elizabeth's mother on the tape calls her "Nadezhda" at one point, and something near the beginning that's harder for me to understand. It sounds like either "Nadenka" or "Nadya" but I had thought "Nadya" would be pronounced with the "Na" emphasized and it doesn't quite sound like that (to me, who speaks no Russian.)

[sistermagpie]

I remember once somebody--maybe it was Nabokov?--saying something about emphasis in Russian being hard for English speakers? Like Americans always put emphasis on syllables of his name where it should be all the same. So he pronounced his name "Vlad-i-mir-Nab-o-kov" and Americans always said "VLAD-imir NAB-okov" or "Vlad-I-mir Nav-OK-ov" or Vlad-i-MIR Nav-a-KOV."

It was funny listening to him explain it so I always remembered it and now I wonder if that makes it hard to hear it on the tape!

I've known couples where everyone refers to the man by a nickname except his wife and I always imagine Elizabeth easily comes across that way to others. When that happens it seems like sometimes it comes across like an affectations of the wife's and sometimes a case of the husband really thinking of himself as his full name. With Elizabeth and Phil it would probably come across as being about her.

I can imagine Philip trying out a few American dad nicknames with the kids and Elizabeth just giving him a withering look. Nicknames in English can be just about anything.