Question of the week #14

[treonb]

The writers of this show seem to have a love for full formal names when it comes to the KGB side of the Cold War. Philip is always Philip, never Phil, and Elizabeth is never Liz or Beth either--and this despite the fact that Russian names all inherently have multiple alternate forms that everyone simply uses as a matter of course. The same goes for Robert, the other Directorate S illegal who we've met, and for that matter, for Gregory (who's not Russian, but whose own culture isn't exactly known for its lack of informal names).

Given this, the question of the week is a two-parter: one, what do you think the writers are up to with this? And two, any thoughts on an explanation for this that works within the world of the show?

You can expect spoilers for the entire first season in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[sistermagpie]

It is kind of fascinating. I can definitely imagine Elizabeth setting the precedent for no nicknames at home. It would be yet another way of not "settling in" to this identity. But there is also something interesting about them not giving their kids names with ready nicknames (Paige) or not using the ones that are there (Henry) as a substitute for what they would do in Russia. I wonder if it adds a level of formality in their mind or if it just doesn't translate because the names and culture is foreign anyway.

Like in, I think, Katiac's story where they choose names without Russian equivalents so they won't be tempted to ever accidentally slip out a "Sasha" or something.

With Gregory I could imagine him being the type of person who was always known as Gregory where the name almost served as a nickname in itself.

I think Nadezhda is a name with fewer nickname forms in Russian? Because it's also a word, like its English counterpart, Hope?

[jae]

With Gregory I could imagine him being the type of person who was always known as Gregory where the name almost served as a nickname in itself.

Interesting! Can you expand on what you mean by this?

I think Nadezhda is a name with fewer nickname forms in Russian?

There are actually several diminutive forms: 'Nadya' is the one everyone uses by rote, and then there are several more that can be used in more intimate relationships.

-J

[sistermagpie]

Thanks for the info! I knew there had to be some diminutives--it seems like it would be impossible for a name in Russian not to have them. I just remember somebody somewhere saying it was a little different--maybe just in the way those forms were originally arrived at or something.

Interesting! Can you expand on what you mean by this?

Mostly I was just thinking about how in English a nickname tends to be more about the person than the name itself. A person named Robert isn't automatically called Rob or Bob in certain situations. It's more usually that the person just "is" a Bob or a Bobby or a Robert. I find it hard to think of my brother as his "real" name, or even the most common nickname for his real name because I've never called him either; he once told someone they had a wrong number because they asked for my real name. That sort of thing.

So I could see even in a culture where most people went by first names/shortened first names or nicknames Gregory might become known as Gregory and nothing else. Like in The Wire there's a lot of characters with nicknames--Cheese, Bodie, Poot, Stringer. But then there's characters known by their real first names like Omar where the real name carries so much respect it becomes a street name in itself, if that makes sense.

But again with Elizabeth I can imagine her just by default being slow to use any American nicknames. She says Stan because nobody uses anything else but she might prefer full names in general. Heh. She might even privately for a long time have considered American nicknames kind of stupid and weak.

[jae]

Yeah, you're right--English names do work differently from Russian ones on that front. (Like your brother, I'm another person who never gets referred to by the long form of her name, actually.) I guess I just have such a hard time imagining that Gregory would always have been Gregory to everyone, though. He's just not that formal a guy, and such a thing would have been utterly bizarre in his culture (like, if 'Omar' were a name with a common short form, I can't imagine that his inner circle wouldn't have called him that). So it seems very likely to me that this practice came from Elizabeth, and that Philip picked up on calling him that because Elizabeth did. I really do like the idea of her being slow to use American nicknames...

-J

[katiac]

Good questions. (It was a different story--can't remember whose--but I remember reading that part too and found it an interesting twist!) I could see Elizabeth being the one who kind of sets the tone for names being so formal with Paige and Henry. I imagine just like with her not wanting to call Philip "Phil" and give him that little encouragement of settling in to their cover identities, she would for a long time tell herself the same thing about Henry and Paige. Like I think she over time started connecting with the kids more, but it was an uphill battle from her original mindset that it's all just an act.

From what I read, Nadezhda does have fewer nicknames. I actually had a hard time trying to figure out what Elizabeth's mother would've called her (and may go back and edit in my own story if I can ever get a good answer.) Someone told me "Nadenka" or "Nadushka" could be used, and "Nadya" as a shorter version. Elizabeth's mother on the tape calls her "Nadezhda" at one point, and something near the beginning that's harder for me to understand. It sounds like either "Nadenka" or "Nadya" but I had thought "Nadya" would be pronounced with the "Na" emphasized and it doesn't quite sound like that (to me, who speaks no Russian.)

[sistermagpie]

I remember once somebody--maybe it was Nabokov?--saying something about emphasis in Russian being hard for English speakers? Like Americans always put emphasis on syllables of his name where it should be all the same. So he pronounced his name "Vlad-i-mir-Nab-o-kov" and Americans always said "VLAD-imir NAB-okov" or "Vlad-I-mir Nav-OK-ov" or Vlad-i-MIR Nav-a-KOV."

It was funny listening to him explain it so I always remembered it and now I wonder if that makes it hard to hear it on the tape!

I've known couples where everyone refers to the man by a nickname except his wife and I always imagine Elizabeth easily comes across that way to others. When that happens it seems like sometimes it comes across like an affectations of the wife's and sometimes a case of the husband really thinking of himself as his full name. With Elizabeth and Phil it would probably come across as being about her.

I can imagine Philip trying out a few American dad nicknames with the kids and Elizabeth just giving him a withering look. Nicknames in English can be just about anything.