Question of the week #9

[treonb]

In the pilot, Philip proposes that he and Elizabeth defect to the United States with their family. Nina, too, toys with the idea of defecting to escape persecution for her crimes. We never see inside their heads, though, so it's hard to know what exactly they're thinking over the course of the season.

This week's question: What do you think is going on with that--how do you think the Russian characters' (those two or any others') thoughts on defection change over time?

You can expect spoilers for the entire first season in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[soupytwist]

I think Philip was serious about it, but that it was an absolutely pragmatic thing - I think he was weighing up, and he thought that if Elizabeth and the kids were coming with him, then the risks of defection would be less than the risks of staying in the KGB (and, presumably, the benefits would outweigh the benefits of staying). But as soon as it's clear Elizabeth's not agreeing with him on that, he doesn't seem to see it as something he should argue - he basically accepts that that's how it is, at least for now. He doesn't seem to have any attachment to America in the philosophical sense - not as an allegiance, is probably a better way of putting it, even though he does like some of the stuff that's available.

I feel really bad for Elizabeth because she's a true believer who seems to have been approaching their time in America very much like a soldier in enemy territory, and she's got less than a decade before the whole thing crashes and burns and I occasionally think about how she might deal with that and go 'eeek'.

Nina I think is someone who's only just started to realise she's got options, and power. Obviously that's partly because she's only recently been promoted, but I think she genuinely didn't really think about any of the more, er, radical options at all until she found herself in the deep end and had to figure out how to swim, quickly. And I am THRILLED for her that she DID - I was completely expecting her to die any minute! But nope. Nina I think has an excellent brain and is excellent at keeping calm in a crisis, and she's just going through trying to work out exactly what her best options are at any given minute. I think she was probably right to doubt the protecting of the FBI at this point, but it wouldn't surprise me if she somehow ended up finding a way to get out all of her own.

The other person who comes to mind here is Martha. I think that Martha is sooner or later going to be faced with a more direct choice, probably of either confessing everything to the FBI or working explicitly for the Soviets with threat of exposure hanging over her head, and I think that's going to be pivotal. (I love Martha, so I really want that to end as happily as possible for her even though she's obviously going to have her heart broken whatever happens. GO MARTHA GO.)

[treonb]

I think that Martha is sooner or later going to be faced with a more direct choice, probably of either confessing everything to the FBI or working explicitly for the Soviets with threat of exposure hanging over her head

Wow.. the option of working for the KGB didn't occur to me! Poor, poor Martha! It would be so horrible of Philip (as if he's not horrible enough), but now I want to see her facing that choice.

[soupytwist]

It would be awful! But I was thinking about what might happen when Martha either figures it out or it looks like she's going to (which has to happen at some point), and I realised... it's either that, or she's dead. Philip might or might not have a plan for what to do in the eventuality of her figuring stuff out, but I can't think of anything that doesn't boil down to one of those options. And omg it is going to be hard to watch!

[jae]

Man. You need to write a Martha story. You really do.

-J

[soupytwist]

I would love to! But I am not sure if I am able to do that amount of research, or indeed to stop myself from just writing a wacko AU thing where Martha probably kicks Philip in the balls and then moves somewhere a long way away and has an awesome new life with a pool boy.

[jae]

*giggles* Fair enough.

-J

[soupytwist]

The pool boy also makes excellent colourful drinks with umbrellas and cherries in, FYI. :D

[jae]

You character-torturer, you! *g*

-J

[jae]

I love what you said about Philip and agree with it wholeheartedly! I do think, though, that he doesn't see another way out for them long-term, so it's still percolating in the back of his mind. I wouldn't be surprised if we find him bringing it up again sometime, if certain things start heating up again--though almost certainly with a bit more nuance.

As for Elizabeth, I'm a little bit worried about what will happen for her ideologically in 1989/90/91, but to be honest, I think at that particular point she'll have more existential concerns than ideological ones, at least for a while (I recommend not thinking too hard about that--it's heartbreaking). Plus, that's the time when everybody from her part of the world will be wrestling with those kinds of ideological issues--which doesn't mean that it's easy, of course, it certainly wasn't easy for the real-life people who lived it--but at least they're all in good company, you know? If she has to actually defect, though--sacrifice principle for pragmatism, and do it as sort of a lone wolf--I think it will just shatter her. I can imagine her getting to a point where she felt it was necessary, but I can't imagine her getting to a point where she felt like it was right, and she would have an awfully hard time forgiving herself.

As for Nina, I think she was absolutely willing to do it, but for her it was a cost-benefit analysis, and the benefits had to outweigh the costs in order to make it worth it. The way she vascillated on the issue over the course of the season had entirely to do with the way her perception of those benefits and those costs changed over time. As of the season one finale, she's clearly picked a side, but the jury is out on whether that's a permanent, principled choice or a pragmatic one (I go back and forth on how I perceive that from her).

I had never thought about the possibility that the Martha storyline might end that way, but oh god, for her sake I sure hope it doesn't. Because Philip doesn't love her, like, at all, and isn't worth that sort of sacrifice.

-J

[soupytwist]

I definitely agree Philip hasn't put that thought away forever! I mean, we the audience know things are going to get dicey, so it would be weird if it didn't crop up again for him, especially as he clearly doesn't have the kind of attachment to KGB work which would stop him from taking it seriously on other grounds.

Oh, ELIZABETH. Gah. And yeah, I think you're totally right and all those concerns are so wrapped up together for her that she's going to have a really tough time, even assuming the less awful options. Because yeah, she would probably find it easier if she could talk to any of the other people going through a massive shakeup of their whole world at the same time, but she's clearly always held herself to a higher standard, and probably would see it all as at least partly her personal failure, and gaaah.

I think Nina was pragmatism, but there was definitely an element of it that seemed more than that - but to me, the elements of it that weren't look more to me like "this dude has treated me badly and not shown himself worthy of my trust, so I am going to be a bit more wary of aligning myself with him or his side, especially when that will take me away from my life as I have currently known it" than more abstract principles. I hope we get lots more time with Nina, cause she's great, and as you say, it's not nearly as clear as it is with Philip.

Seriously, Martha just makes me so sad!

[treonb]

As for Nina, I think she was absolutely willing to do it, but for her it was a cost-benefit analysis

You think for Philip it wasn't a cost-benefit analysis? He's not in the same situation as Nina, who was actively pressured by the Americans, but I think he did consider defecting for simple pragmatic reasons. And in the pilot he had the perfect opportunity too.

[jae]

I didn't mean to imply that! I definitely think Philip is a pragmatist (and deep down, probably always has been), so for him it certainly would have been that too.

-J

[quantumreality]

Honestly? I think Philip had three or six million good reasons to defect. With that kind of money you can live the kind of life even only Americans can dream of.

[treonb]

There are more important things, like family.

[jae]

That was clearly part of it, but not all of it.

-J

[treonb]

I was actually surprised when Philip was going to pack the kids and go to Canada. If something happened to Elizabeth, and especially if she was being held by the Feds, he could have offered to defect as a way of freeing her. A sort of prisoner transfer. And actually thinking of taking the kids to Russia.. I have no idea how that would have worked. I can see Paige escaping on the way.

Anyways.. I think that shows he completely changed his mind. Though not for ideological reasons. Maybe he feels he can't let Elizabeth down?

[jae]

Wow, that's a really good point. Looking back, that surprises me too. I honestly can't imagine that he's changed his mind entirely--he's too much of a pragmatist for that, and I don't think he'd be able to imagine the kids in the Soviet Union either--but it does suggest that he's willing to entertain all sorts of possibilities.

-J

[jae]

Yeah, I agree on all points here. The money was a motivator for Philip, but only because he was reacting as a parent who wants to provide for his kids.

As for Nina, I agree too--I think we don't have enough show-evidence about what her internal ideologies look like to be able to answer this question with any certainty. I look forward to learning more about her on this front as we get to season two. (Still, speculating about it in the meantime is great fun. *g*)

-J

[treonb]

Regarding Nina, I think she would have gone for defection at first, if the FBI would have moved on it. But as far as they were concerned, she was only valuable in her current position, so it wasn't even an issue.

I don't buy the devotion to the motherland. I think she turned double-agent because, besides this being the smartest move on her part, she loved Vlad, and she realized Stan was the one who killed him. So she's right now working out of self-interest and revenge.

[quantumreality]

Hmm - never really thought of the revenge angle vis-a-vis Nina, but it strikes me that she could be putting herself in a position where she could call on KGB resources, no questions asked, and absolutely nail Stan to the wall when the time comes.