Question of the week #41

[treonb]

The Church and Pastor Tim seem to serve as additional parental figures for Paige--parental figures that provide a more unambiguously black-and-white, worldview than her real parents can. We also know that Philip and Elizabeth will soon be asked to tell Paige the truth about their jobs and their lives in the U.S.

Do you think Paige might confide in her pastor if her parents try to bring her in?  What do you think she would tell him?

You can expect spoilers for the entire first two seasons in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[treonb]

My guess is that she will confide in Pastor Tim, though she might not come out and say what's her problem outright. Besides which, it sounds so absurd when you say it out loud: My parents are KGB spies and they want me to spy for them. She'd have to be sure he'd take her seriously.

On the other hand, I'm still suspicious (or rather, hopeful) that the pastor is a KGB plant. So it might actually be good for her in a roundabout sort of way.

[(Anonymous)]

My comment is similar to the one I made at the end of season 2. That is, how can they expect Paige to remain silent when confronted with this mind boggling information? She will certainly need to confide in or unload to someone. Pastor Tim is a likely choice or one of her friends from the church group. What if she confides in Henry? He is less mature than she is and even more likely to have loose lips. This looks like big trouble to me.

CA

[treonb]

Yes, but, she'd already tried confiding in Henry. His response was 'not interested'. And it's such an explosive issue. Even with her suspicions that her parents are having an affair, she only started to unload after she met somebody with a similar problem.

[quantumreality]

Did she? I can't remember this.

[treonb]

I don't remember where and when, but there was at least once when she asked him if he doesn't think something is weird, and he just shrugged it off.

[katiac]

Henry I think would make more of a choice to confide in as he gets older. He'll probably be 12 next season and that's getting closer to an age where they could actually lean on each other a little at times. Before he was really at a doofus younger brother age. Also, not to knock Paige, but I think all the times I can recall where she's tried to start these big conversations with Henry, he's been in pajamas or asleep, like when she wakes him up with her hairbrained idea mom and dad didn't come home and actually they're in the bedroom getting busy. Plus, when Henry has been the more sensible and mature of the two of them despite the age difference (I'm thinkig the hitchhiking incident) Paige has basically brushed him off. So it's not really hard to see how over time, Paige may have trained Henry to think she overreacts to everything and there's no point in taking her seriously.

[sistermagpie]

I think, like Treonb said, she'd if anything just confide something in a dishonest way. I.e., she might hint that she thinks her parents are involved in something illegal etc. and ask about what he thinks.

But personally I think that if her parents let her in on the truth, Paige would understand the seriousness of it and realize that telling Pastor Tim--or anybody--is too much of a risk. Paige might have problems with her parents right now, but I can't see how she'd feel so strongly about Pastor Tim that she'd trust him with that kind of family information. Not only would she be putting her whole family in danger, she'd be putting Pastor Tim in danger.

That said, I think that if Paige learns the truth the game will have slowly shifted by then. It wouldn't be like if they just told her at the end of Echo. It's like Elizabeth said--this is about her parents fulfilling the thing she feels she lacks in her life that she's now trying to fill with the church. It changes the whole dynamic. Right now her parents are the clueless suburbanites who never think beyond home repair and their travel business while Pastor Tim wants to make a difference in the world. The new dynamic is that her parents are even more committed to making a difference in the world than Pastor Tim and far from being clueless or never "helping anyone," their whole lives are dedicated to a higher cause. I think Paige would respect that even while she's confused and frightened by the cause in question. If Elizabeth can put it across like that--and she can, because it's the truth and she's just like Paige this way--I don't think Paige would see things the same way.

Right now, after all, she assumes that whatever her parents are up to is sordid and selfish. They're having affairs. If she suspected something illegal it would probably be something like drugs or some other ways they were illegally making money. Even that sort of thing would make it scary to tell Pastor Tim. But if they're committed to a higher cause I think she'd be more on their side even if she disagreed with the cause. This is in some ways central to her whole misunderstanding of her parents. The most important thing to know about them that she doesn't know now is not that they're Russian but that they're instruments of a higher cause by choice. One of her problems with her parents right now is that they appear so small to her--they don't understand, they're too caught up in petty things like whatever nonsense they've got going on. Finding out they were spies wouldn't just make them scary, they would make them bigger, imo.

[treonb]

It's like Elizabeth said--this is about her parents fulfilling the thing she feels she lacks in her life that she's now trying to fill with the church. It changes the whole dynamic.

That's true. But I'm wondering also about the personal aspects. That is, I can see Paige ignoring the ideological aspects and just focusing on the fact that her parents lied to her. It's a serious breach of trust.

[sistermagpie]

Oh, absolutely. There's no way this won't be a huge blow psychologically. On the one hand she already knows they lie and she just wants to know the truth, but the truth is so much worse than she could imagine. And this kind of blow to what one knows about their life can be seriously damaging. See also: Jared Connors!

[quantumreality]

Oh god, it would be the most freakishly nightmarish thing if she shot her parents and Henry, but in her case, not because she wanted to be a KGB spy, but because she didn't want to be one :O

[quantumreality]

I don't think she'd talk to Pastor Tim, except maybe indirectly.

Ironically, if Jared were still alive, she'd be able to talk to him, except what if he "reports her" like Elizabeth did to Philip, because he thinks her zeal is insufficiently revolutionary, or some twaddle like that?

If Henry were a bit closer to her age he might get what was troubling her and be able to be her support. He's already shown he'll step up to the plate to protect his family, and he's shown a side of himself that has a complete lack of ethics about certain things you don't do (even if he tries to convince himself and his parents he's "still a good person").

I'm reminded of the scene in Manhattan where the scientist, Dr. Winter, ends up confessing what the project really is to the local maid, who doesn't understand any English at all.

Paige might end up just going to a park and talking to a rock if only just to get the words out somehow and actually confront the fact that her parents want her to be a Soviet spy.

[sistermagpie]

I don't think the Jared situation would have been a problem. First because she would never have known anything about Jared so it's not like it would even occur to her to confide in him. Second, at that point Paige wouldn't be expected to have sufficient zeal about anything. Philip can be reported on because he's taken an oath and is doing the job. It would be no big news to the KGB that the American tenth grader isn't loyal to the KGB.

He's already shown he'll step up to the plate to protect his family, and he's shown a side of himself that has a complete lack of ethics about certain things you don't do (even if he tries to convince himself and his parents he's "still a good person").

That's an interesting question in itself. I don't think Henry's a bad person for breaking into the neighbor's house (his justifications did show an ethical stance in that he wasn't hurting anyone or stealing anything etc.), but he still recognized the conflict between what he did and being a good person. But then, he and Paige sort of mirror Philip and Elizabeth in the way they approach these things, and I'm not sure either position is clearly more or less that of a good person.

[quantumreality]

I think under the right circumstances Henry wouldn't care that his parents were effectively working to destroy the USA, because they're *his* parents and damned if anyone will take them away from him.

He might even see the whole thing as a giant game, and if Paige were to get her own moral qualms, he might tell her as much.

[cadma]

I'd agree too that she wouldn't tell him about the real situation, but she might still turn to him/the church community for emotional support. Finding out her parents aren't who she thinks they are might make their role as an alternative family more important to her -- if she feels like her real parents are strangers to her or she can't trust them.

[apolla_savre]

You know, I don't think they will tell her.

At the end, Philip told Arkady that they're *done* if the Center tries to bring in their kids.

They swore to each other that they would never tell them. Elizabeth slapped Philip when he talked about defecting and the kids would know about their spy lives.

They both seem pretty adamant that they do not want their kids to know or be involved.

I don't think Paige would tell, though, if she found out. She's a smart enough kid to know that people who find out are likely to turn her parents in. Does she want them to go to prison? No.

[cadma]

I could maybe see Paige turning them in if she decided it was the right thing to do, but I think it's a decision she'd take some time to come to. She wouldn't risk doing something that would get them arrested if that's not her intention.

[katiac]

Yup. I think the whole "does she want them to go to prison?" question is the hugely complicating one. Because Paige would almost certainly feel some sense of "wrongness" about them killing people, conning people, and all the other things they do even in the service of a good cause. Whether or not they turned her into a spy for the KGB, Paige would still love her parents, would not want her family destroyed and would have a lot of guilt and anxiety about what would happen to her and Henry now and in the future should her parents be sent to prison. It's definitely not so simplistic as deciding between right and wrong. Henry might wind up blaming her for the choice to turn them in (which he would have some right to, having no say in it and having it affect his life) and she could be left with no parents and a brother who wants nothing to do with her. I don't think Paige would be dumb enough to make any move lightly. Also as SisterMagpie points out above, Pastor Tim being let in on the secret puts his life in danger and they have no fond reason to spare him. She would be doing him no kindness.

[sistermagpie]

Also, there's so many degrees of knowledge here, it's not all or nothing. Philip and Elizabeth could tell Elizabeth something about what they do without explaining any of the details. She's not going to leap to the conclusion that Philip has a second wife, Elizabeth's blowing strangers in hotel rooms, they're both assassinating people. She doesn't know the details and she'd have no reason to know them. These aren't things either parent would be eager to talk about with her and they're going to be naturally reticent anyway because these are secrets that aren't always just theirs to keep. I think they'd both be somewhat aware that there's a huge difference between what they consider normal (like Elizabeth just saying "it happens" about guys getting rough in the bedroom with her) and what other people consider normal (Paige being more freaked out by seeing them having sex than they were).

One of the interesting things about that last ep, the more I think about it, is that Philip actually doesn't tell Arkady the kids are off limits. He tells him that the Centre can't approach the kids themselves. It's still presumably understood that Philip and Elizabeth are expected to fall in line. So that's where we're left, with Philip prepared to find a way to avoid having the kids brought in and Elizabeth considering whether they should do it. They made it an issue between the two Jennings instead of Jennings vs. the Centre for now.

[katiac]

And it seems like what he's really objecting to is their exploitation, the same way Jared was used, and seen 0as this bright shiny object by the Centre, to the point they wound up losing not only him, but two other agents, and Amelia in their greed. If Paige came to the conclusion on her own she wanted to spy for the KGB, it's not like he would object on ideological grounds, or like he loves Elizabeth any less because of what they do. But he doesn't want their kids treated like pawns, manipulated into the spy game and put at great risk unless it's something they freely want. Elizabeth just doesn't view it the same way so the same issues don't come up. And really P and E have to be thinking with the kids they're so close to being "safe." Paige will be an adult in 4 years, Henry in just 7 and then even if something were to happen to their parents, they've reached an age where they can survive, even if a bit messily, and now the Centre wants to take that future from the kids too, who never signed up for this.

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I think it's also significant beyond just that the two of them tend to play Devil's Advocate with each other, that Elizabeth was so freaked out over the idea of Paige and Henry being set loose in Europe where they'd be "dead in a week" in her mind, while Philip had confidence they'd be fine. It reflects their views a bit here, I think. Elizabeth sees the kids being under the eye of the center as potentially a good thing because it gives them structure for their life, protection and stability in exchange for their sacrifice and work. She saw them being completely on their own as dangerous to them because they're so unprepared.

Where as Philip saw that situation as a sink or swim moment that would end with them swimming. This I think, is reflected in the little we know about them both. Elizabeth has always needed something bigger to give her life shape and been disturbed by things like kids playing all day, thinking it makes them soft and directionless. Philip seems to really like the idea of them having freedom to choose to be or do what they want--and he seems to see survival situations in his own life as really formative. He never got to the end of that story about the milk but he seemed to be setting it up as a moment where he took control when left on his own. So the only two stories Philip's ever told about his past life involved play (swordfighting with icicles) and survival. Where Elizabeth's stories are more about responsibility and sacrifice (she took care of her mother on her own;they refused food because it came with hidden strings attached). Survival is Philip's default mode.

[(Anonymous)]

Interesting as to whether her involvement with the church gives her a sense of 'right and wrong.' If so, how would she asses the right and wrong of her parents' world?

CA

[cadma]

That is interesting -- I think her sense of right and wrong probably doesn't come from the church, as she's only been involved in it a few months and she presumably had one before. I should think she'd be instinctively horrified if she knew her parents went around shooting people etc, and that would have nothing to do with the church, but the church's teachings might give her support in disagreeing with her parents if they try to persuade her that their actions are justified. But they probably wouldn't tell her that much about specific crimes they've committed in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry asses = assess

CA