Question of the week #6

[treonb]

The two central elements of the show are the relationship between Philip and Elizabeth and their work. They are also parents, however. 

So here's this week's question: How do you feel about the way the show treats these elements of their lives? Which elements of it work for you, and which don't?  You can expect spoilers for the entire first season in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[jae]

The show doesn't dwell on the kids quite enough, as far as I'm concerned. I do think they're close in the sense that I wouldn't want too much more attention on the kids than we already get, but more explicit acknowledgment that the kids are aware that they get left alone more often than their friends do would be great, even just in passing. Like, remember how in "Trust Me," the kids had a long B-story of their own? Maybe the show was just being early-80s-accurate in the fact that they found a way to get home by themselves and weren't completely freaked out by that, but I still think that some explicit mention between the two of them of the fact that their parents often operate with that sort of benign neglect would have added something to the overarching storyline.

I'm also really glad that they eventually explained how things work when Philip and Elizabeth are both away at night (i.e. based on the finale, it's clear that the kids have a rule that they're not to disturb their mother while she's in her room with the door closed after bedtime, and that when she's "in her room with the door closed," she's actually often gone), but I wish that explanation had come sooner.

As far as storylines that are specifically about parenting issues, though, I'm okay with the amount of time the show devotes to that. They could have a few more without tipping the balance, but too many more and it would change the show for the worse.

-J

[treonb]

Maybe the show was just being early-80s-accurate in the fact that they found a way to get home by themselves and weren't completely freaked out by that

I remember wondering about that when the show aired. I would have been freaked out :-) And don't they have neighbors or family to call when they need help?

But maybe having parents working in the travel business they get used to them being called away without notice. That ep certainly stressed how life was different pre-cellphones.

[jae]

I would have been freaked out, too (although I do think not quite as freaked out as today's kids who at least in North America don't tend to learn how to get themselves ANYWHERE by themselves, but please ignore that digression ;)! And I would have been very angry with my parents before finding out that they were in a "car accident."

Anyway, I would suppose that they don't have family for obvious reasons, but I agree, I would have thought the Jenningses would have cultivated a relationship with a neighbour family (before Family FBI came along, that is) for just this sort of issue.

-J

[soupytwist]

I totally agree - I found that glimpse at the rules that must make up the kids' lives absolutely fascinating. I do think we're supposed to think that the amount of time the kids spend alone is unhealthy, and probably unusual enough that it's going to Lead To Something.

I think there's a general theme that being a parent is in some ways fundamental incompatible with what they do (timewise, rather than emotion-wise)... but that's kind of paralleled to the way they are a family and co-workers at the same time. They can function primarily as themselves-personally or themselves-professionally, but the nature of what they do means there's no easy, obvious line where one is divided from the other, and that's a topic I find really interesting. The travel business fits that as well - there is seemingly real travel business happening there, but how exactly do Philip and Elizabeth have time to make any of that happen? I assume their staff do some and they are also doing travel-business work more of the time than we actually see, because it's not plot relevant, but that must be really difficult for them to balance, especially with the kids as well. I'd love more about that.

[treonb]

I think there's a general theme that being a parent is in some ways fundamental incompatible with what they do (timewise, rather than emotion-wise)

Elizabeth does seem to be a super-mom: she's raising a family, running a business and doing all the spy stuff on the side. The business part seems to be the only thing running smoothly, though.

[soupytwist]

She certainly tries to - my immediate thought when she used "folding the ironing" as an excuse and then it turned out she really had folded the ironing was "holy crap of course she had to do that at 3am because when else would she have TIME?!" haha. But yeah, I definitely think it's a tenuous balance at best, and I'm expecting next season to show some of it come tumbling down (or at least start to).

[jae]

I think that would be a fascinating turn for the show to take, for sure. And that's definitely the best approach to take with it, too--folding the kids into the marriage and spy storylines rather than trying to make them a third and separate element.

-J

[treonb]

"holy crap of course she had to do that at 3am because when else would she have TIME?!" haha.

LOL! Poor Elizabeth. They should bring that up at some point, I think it became an issue during the 80s as women moved into career building.

[jae]

I get the idea that they've arranged things so that they're mostly managers at the travel business these days, and absent ones at that. Because you're right, they would have had time pre-Reagan to raise kids and be spies AND have a cover career, but not so much now.

-J

[soupytwist]

Definitely, when they were very small particularly there just wouldn't have been any other option! Small hungry/tired/soiled children don't wait! Unless maybe the KGB paid for a nanny for some of that time, but I am guessing a nanny would not be at the top of their budget priorities.

(and oh god your comment about how Elizabeth must have haaaated that? YES THAT. YES. It is totally canon to me that at least a decent chunk of why she experienced their early lives in America so very differently from Philip was that she got stuck at home with the children a lot of the time and just SEETHED with resentment about the whole thing. Maybe not even consciously so much, since as their mum I think it's clear that she's taken on board some of the traditional ideas about what a motherly role requires, even if most of those ideas don't apply to her at all, but still. God, I am just cringing with sympathy on her behalf. And I still kind of think that the having kids together is the creepiest bit of the KGB Marriage deal. (I don't think she'd have had any at all if that hadn't been required, gah.)

(Also I wonder how much of the laundry/cleaning/cooking etc Philip did as a member of the family... my feeling is more than some, but not half.)

[jae]

It is totally canon to me that at least a decent chunk of why she experienced their early lives in America so very differently from Philip was that she got stuck at home with the children a lot of the time and just SEETHED with resentment about the whole thing.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. She wouldn't have been overtly and consciously feminist about it (because of the way her culture viewed feminism), but she would have hated that role SO MUCH and felt SO TRAPPED.

Also, ahem, just as an aside, you will beta my current story-in-progress when I have a draft, right? Because, yes. :)

Also I wonder how much of the laundry/cleaning/cooking etc Philip did as a member of the family... my feeling is more than some, but not half.

We actually SEE him doing very little around the house IN THE EPISODES. It's even commented on a few times, though of course not nearly as much as it would be in 2013.

My feeling is that he does things for her only when he wants something from her (or when he's pulling his misguided chivalry/overprotective schtick), and that they're not always the things she would want him to do anyway. I love love love Philip, but he's guy and a product of his two cultures.

-J

[soupytwist]

She really REALLY REALLY would, omg.

(And ahem, I would LOVE TO, yes please! Send away anything you like whenever you like!)

My feeling is that he does things for her only when he wants something from her (or when he's pulling his misguided chivalry/overprotective schtick), and that they're not always the things she would want him to do anyway.

Oh, ow, yeah, I can see that. Him doing, say, the laundry is A Gesture - her doing it is expected.

[jae]

(Hurray, thank you! One less Beta Problem to worry about...though there are still plenty, see my upcoming writing journal update. :/)

-J

[soupytwist]

(No worries! I'm always thrilled to hear from you/about your work, so please do consider that a standing offer! Especially if it can solve a Problem, although I'm sorry to hear there are more! You deserve a break!)

[treonb]

My feeling is that he does things for her only when he wants something from her (or when he's pulling his misguided chivalry/overprotective schtick)

And in our case, forcing Elizabeth to be the stay-at-home mom is exactly the overprotective thing to do. Just like in the finale, I can see them arguing over who's going to do X or Y, and then Philip slips out the back and leaves Elizabeth with the children.

[maidenjedi]

Chiming in for the first time.... :-)

I think that the awareness you talk about, about being left to fend for themselves more often, is probably about to kick in. I get the sense that Paige is about to start questioning a lot of things about her parents, if she wasn't already. So maybe we'll see this come up in season 2 directly, especially as fallout of what happened in the finale (I'm unclear about the spoiler policy for these posts, so I'll leave it at that).

[jae]

Hiiiii! *waves frantically* So fun to have you here. :) I hope you're right that this comes up in season two directly--and yeah, I do think you are.

I'm unclear about the spoiler policy for these posts, so I'll leave it at that

Oops, I suppose we should make that clearer, shouldn't we? I said something specifically about "you should expect spoilers for the whole first season in the comments" in the first one, but then we kinda forgot.

-J

[quantumreality]

I think so too. It would be fascinating to see what Paige does/doesn't do if she discovers the truth. On the one hand the Soviets are the devil incarnate according to US cultural norms at the time, but on the other, Philip and Elizabeth ARE her parents.

[treonb]

I'm hoping she'll only discover half the truth, for example that she'll only suspect Elizabeth is up to something bad, not Philip. The children are already driving a wedge between Philip and Elizabeth (fun dad vs. demanding mom), so it's right up their alley.

Americans' children

[nora_carrington]

I just gulped down the first 6 episodes yesterday, so am coming to this discussion late. I think "benign neglect" overstates the difference between how the Jennings' were being raised and their peers. It was extremely common for even middle class kids to spend a great deal of time alone, or at least not with their parents. Children as the endlessly fascinating project that must occupy every spare minute is a much more recent development (I think it's an abomination, but that's maybe just me). It's a little odd that Elizabeth works outside the home; this was still fairly uncommon for middle class women who were not professionals and whose children weren't yet teens in 1980 (lots and lots of women went back to work to put the kids through college; an Ivy education was exactly the same price as the average white collar female wage: $5000/yr). I don't think most American parents of that era would have left the children alone asleep, but plenty of parents were out multiple nights a week bowling, attending PTA, church, or municipal government meetings and/or having cocktail/dinner parties with other adults children were not invited to attend. The children of the hosts would have been fed early, separately, and sent off to entertain themselves.

Re: Americans' children

[treonb]

Hey, welcome aboard :-D

The comm was started post S1, but we had a group rewatch to discuss all the first season episodes. You can find all the episode discussion posts here. Feel free to jump in :-) Just note that since this was a rewatch, discussions might include spoilers for the entire season.

Re: Americans' children

[jae]

Hi, Nora! Welcome to the comm. As you watch, feel free to page back on the episode discussion posts and respond on the episodes in question if you'd like. :)

Your interpretation of this did occur to me: that's what I meant when I wrote "Maybe the show was just being early-80s-accurate in the fact that they found a way to get home by themselves and weren't completely freaked out by that." I mean, I was around myself and living in the U.S. at the time (Paige and I are contemporaries), so I'm aware of how different things were back then for kids! But in "Trust Me" there was more going on than just that--their mother had been due to arrive to pick them up and they simply didn't show up. At Paige's age, I wouldn't have thought a thing of being left alone at night, but if my mother had just not showed up to pick me up and left me to get home by myself, I would have been both worried and angry.

Also...I don't want to spoil for later episodes, but suffice it to say that this does come up eventually. :)

-J

[treonb]

I'm generally happy with how the show treats the family aspects. I'm not sure it's always realistic: Philip and Elizabeth are often out of the house. I guess the children are old enough to take care of themselves now, but I wonder how they managed when the kids were younger.

But overall, it does help ground the show in real life, it helps reflect on the chars themselves (as in how Elizabeth responded to the kids acting against her authority), and I love the humor around it.

[jae]

I guess the children are old enough to take care of themselves now, but I wonder how they managed when the kids were younger.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this--I think there must have been a while when the kids were tiny tiny babies where Elizabeth was yielding most of the spy work to Philip. (And how she must have resented that!!!) Although we're definitely meant to have the idea that their work in the early days was nothing compared to what it is now, since Reagan.

-J

[maidenjedi]

So far I'm okay with the way the series handles the kids - they're there, but not central to the story yet, and the amount of time we got with them seemed to work. I do think going forward it will be more difficult - how realistic they stay with Paige in particular will be interesting. And she fascinates me, now that I come to it. Paige is old enough, and certainly at that precise age, when she's not going to write off something her parents do when it conflicts with what she sees in other families. It doesn't seem that either of the kids is terribly social, but as Paige moves into high school, that will definitely change in some respect. And I think that will affect the way the kids react to what happens around them.

The relationships between Paige/Henry and Elizabeth/Philip seemed really true to me, as well, especially Paige/Elizabeth. Elizabeth clearly has baggage from her relationship with her own mother, and her upbringing and how her experiences are so starkly separate from what her daughter experiences. She can't relate to Paige, or hasn't wanted to, and we join the family right as Paige is reacting to that.

Philip....I can see how, especially if it's true that he's been in love longer than Elizabeth suspects, he has a better handle on the idea of fatherhood, even if it doesn't always play out. We don't know a lot about his family background yet, so it's difficult to say - is he compensating for a childhood not unlike Elizabeth's, or is he demonstrating a role he has witnessed? Hmm.

[jae]

Just seeing this now (Treon posted this one, so I didn't see this comment back when you posted it), and loving it. I would love to see a Paige story from you! Anything in the works?

-J