Promo discussion: Episode 2x06
Mar. 27th, 2014 10:34 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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theamericans This post is intended to allow discussion of the upcoming episode, as reflected in the promos. It will be updated as more promos appear.
Please keep the comments spoiler free from anything not mentioned in these promos.
Please keep the comments spoiler free from anything not mentioned in these promos.
The "exclusive scene"
Date: 2014-03-27 03:39 pm (UTC)The most hilarious bit about this preview scene to me is that while the episode was running,
More seriously, though: I love the way that Elizabeth's little jealousy pangs work differently than for an ordinary couple. I mean, of course they would, of course we're not going to be seeing her raging about his cheating ways and how much he's hurting her anytime soon. She's too much of a professional. But it was obvious both in the last episode and in this one that she was starting to feel those pangs, and now she's channelling them into this curiosity that's so believable for people who do what they do. It's delightful, but it's also so very them.
-J
Re: The "exclusive scene"
Date: 2014-03-27 10:04 pm (UTC)I also wonder if there's a different message for every possible emergency.
And my favorite line "it's not the end of the season". Somewhere out there, there's a vid wanting that line used.
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Date: 2014-03-28 07:09 pm (UTC)Like it would be hilarious if he was like "I know Clark and he would not cheat on his wife. He's a stickler for rules. He's very conflicted and stressed about hiding his marriage from the FBI. That job means a lot to him. Stop trying to temp him, you wicked city woman. Besides, you're not his type."
Plus Jesus, how confusing do you want to get? Clark having an affair with Elizabeth? How many layers of deception do you think I can handle!
I actually almost thought for a second that he was going to "do" Clark when he was answering her. But I'm really hoping that there is some play out of this--seems like there should be. The showrunners said they were careful about sprinkling in the sex sparingly and the last time there really was any was in the pilot so...
It's just like...this scene is so hilarious because we've heard Elizabeth jokingly refer to Clark in the third person, and Philip refer to him the same way, but here he's referring to Clark in the third person totally unironically. But I just love the idea that Elizabeth has to hide behind teasing him when she really really does want to sleep with "Clark" and I hope she winds up having to say that.
Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-29 03:05 am (UTC)But then the way she's bringing it up has to be a little alarming for Philip, both because it's different from what was apparently the state of things in bed before, and it's also intruding into a place that's private in his head and she only rarely sees. Like it would seem like Philip would use his other personalities to help keep it all separate and not letting what "Clark" has to do bleed over and make Philip feel guilty, particularly in cases where he's forced to kill or really hurt someone in a way he can't get away from. So Elizabeth even bringing it up in a "let's play around with this" sort of way might be intriguing on the one hand because she's clearly hinting at something he probably wants too, but also disturbing because the way she's doing it is poking around in some potentially uncomfortable places. Like I like what Jae said about Philip having separate identities that aren't him very much at all (who he is is kept carefully separated), but Elizabeth in a similar situation picking parts that are really in some way a version of her so maybe the idea wouldn't seem as disturbing to her as it clearly seems to him on some level. Or at least he seems antsy about it.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-29 03:11 pm (UTC)Mostly, I just can't believe the show is actually going there. Just. Can't. Believe. It. :)
-J
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-29 05:53 pm (UTC)Yes, and I think ultimately their biggest emotional/intimate gains have come as a result of them being forced into acknowledging/voicing/facing an uncomfortable truth or uncomfortable emotional situation. It reveals the passion they have for each other, and that sharing of true feelings builds intimacy, particularly after what they do. It's after Timoshev that they first come together as a couple. It's after the revelation about Gregory that they take a step to really try a relationship. It's after "COMINT" and Philip goes overboard trying to protect her and apologizes that Elizabeth confides her fears. It's after Elizabeth is crying and having an emotional breakdown trying to tell him she wants it to be "real" that they get to that happy place (temporarily) we've never seen them. It's after the pain of the separation that they figure out what they mean to each other.
It very much fits in their pattern that if they can deal with the temporary discomfort of getting into this new place, it ultimately could be something that they not only find enjoyable, but that's very much intimacy building. To share things that are uncomfortable and have them not only accepted but nurtured is a HUGE thing, particularly for them.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 02:07 am (UTC)I almost wonder how Philip would approach trying to bring a Clark aspect into Philip. Like does he use Clark a little to get into the thing, like roleplay? (I kind of like the idea of Elizabeth instinctively wanting to do all of his personas like she's marking her territory) Does he just try to be more aggressive as himself? Because that could potentially get into issues about why he doesn't immediately feel comfortable doing that.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:26 am (UTC)Plus, to what degree would Elizabeth even *want* him to be Clark? Does he need to keep on the wig and glasses? Start off in a nerdy sweater? Just do the voice? Or does she just want to feel like there's nothing that's private between Philip and another woman that they don't do, making the circles of intimacy reversed? The initial thought I had was that it was both about righting that "who's really on the inside" emotional aspect of it, and also that the idea of Philip being unreserved and kind of freely sexual with her was probably a turn-on. I would imagine in the same way that he tends to be very private and hold back giving us glimpses at "the real man" (or close to it, ha ha) in general, the same thing may carry over into the bedroom and she may like the idea of seeing a very private glimpse of him where he lets the walls down and abandons caution.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:40 am (UTC)Maybe he'll work on it in private and figure out a way to work it in organically.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:48 am (UTC)Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 04:05 am (UTC)It's really great when you think of how often male sexual aggression has been portrayed with Elizabeth as at best pathetic and at worst rape, but now she can actually enjoy it in this relationship.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 01:06 pm (UTC)Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 02:51 pm (UTC)I've been thinking about how to phrase my response to Magpie's question about what I meant, but this pretty much nails it. Even if he ultimately finds the idea exciting (and he very well might!), it doesn't surprise me at all to see that his first response to the notion of having sex with Elizabeth as Clark would be shock and discomfort.
Unlike the two of you, though, I'm actually reading her suggestion (especially given the playful way she works it into a discussion that starts out being about Martha) as "you know, we could actually roleplay this--come on, let's just try it and see what happens." Which exploded my brain when it occurred to me as I first watched the scene, and then I went...huh, no, I guess I could actually see that. :) I mean, they've kind of both had to learn to be sexually adventurous to do their jobs, and roleplay is something they're both really, really good at. It's really not at all surprising that they'd want to (at least sometimes) start playing with that a little with each other. Although also not surprising that it would be more immediately exciting to Elizabeth than to Philip, who roleplays differently from the way she does and therefore would almost certainly have more reservations about it.
-J
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:13 pm (UTC)Philip might even, on some level, ultimately enjoy it more in a way because it speaks to the natural way he sort of is--fluid in different personalities--I just think it could be emotionally trickier if they try to use one of his personalities that he specifically uses to keep things separate while spying in a psychological sense. Like Elizabeth would potentially enjoy more aggression from him in bed, but would probably be triggered and unhappy if they did something that came too close to reenacting the rape. Similarly, he might like getting to slip into another personality for fun sometimes, but it would need to come with him having some control over how that was chosen so it doesn't get into one that makes him uncomfortable then or later in the way it screws with things in his head. If that makes any sense...
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:28 pm (UTC)Yes, yes, yes! This is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I said it could be revealing of the kind of person he is in a way that the two of them aren't used to.
I also agree with you that he would probably ultimately find it hugely exciting if he can uncouple it from all the levels of discomfort the very idea would bring up. Because for him, I really do think that sort of roleplay would be more than just being a side entrance to having rougher sex with his wife. It would be having sex with someone his Philip self both loves and finds very sexually attractive, but as what amounts to an entirely different person. That would access all sorts of aspects of his malleability that don't usually enter into his relationship with Elizabeth at all. And I think that would probably be an enormous turnon for him, but that it will take some doing to get to the turnon under all the discomfort.
Like Elizabeth would potentially enjoy more aggression from him in bed, but would probably be triggered and unhappy if they did something that came too close to reenacting the rape.
I actually think she's not worried about that at all. She seems very firmly in control of the situation as she brings it up, and not at all tentative about it. She's even kind of baiting him, challenging him (which is both hilarious and delightful). I definitely think that's one of the things he is thinking about, though, and one of the huge aspects of his discomfort.
Seriously, though, every time I think about this scene at all, one track of my brain is still stuck on I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING THERE. Because I CAN'T. :) My god, this show. How does this show even exist?
-J
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:37 pm (UTC)I think I didn't explain what I meant very well. I don't think Elizabeth is actively worried about that at all right now, or even thinking about it. But, for example, if Philip got on top of her in the same position Timoshev did, twisted an arm behind her back, etc, there's a point at which it could become too close to it and that would trigger her, whereas just more aggression in bed would be a potentially exciting thing.
And I think the same is true with Philip. There's an aspect of using other personalities in bed that I think would be a similar turn-on for him, but I feel like in the same way some things could trigger Elizabeth if they got too close to it, there's the potential some things could trigger Philip in a similar way in using certain personalities--either in bed, or later. Elizabeth in the kitchen conversation seemed at ease and playful. Philip seemed the exact opposite, which is why I feel like he's having sort of a mini freak-out on the inside. It's a little even like the kitchen scene from the pilot where he's just kissing her neck suggesting they try this thing and it's no big deal to him, but to her it's layered with all these other things that freak her out and he doesn't really understand why.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:18 pm (UTC)But she probably doesn't have it all worked out in her head yet. This was her preliminary raising of the subject. Because she'd probably also be excited by Philip just doing something different as Philip. (And how great is it that they're having the conversation while they do the dishes together and Philip's the one with the dishtowel and glass in hand.)
But then, they're both Philip. And they're probably more "both Philip" to her than they are to him, you know? It's possible, like we've said before, that to her doing this roleplay would be Philip projecting certain qualities like she does when she's doing this. He'd still be himself, but acting a certain way. It's Philip acting the way he would act if he was shy or a fussbudget.
Where as for Philip Elizabeth's question about "would Clark ever be unfaithful?" might be more to the point because if he was going to "be" Clark with Elizabeth he'd actually be being Clark and that would require a more fully realized scenario (and would probably bring up some issues when he went back to be Clark with Martha having been unfaithful). It would almost be even more wonderfully twisted if he did it and then was guilty about it with Martha. I just love how "I don't now what you think he's like..." sounding almost a little fussbudgety. He's not speaking as Clark or anything but the words can't help but make me imagine Philip kind of getting between Clark and Elizabeth almost to protect him from her like he's Philip's colleague.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:24 pm (UTC)Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:36 pm (UTC)EXACTLY. It would be something that he couldn't undo, and couldn't pretend hadn't happened when he's with Martha later. It would become a piece of Clark and what he'd done, and he'd have to incorporate that. It would be emotionally hugely complex for him in ways I think Elizabeth wouldn't fully understand.
But maybe...this is going to sound kind of horrible, but...maybe that wouldn't ultimately matter? I mean, he's obviously willing to have Clark do hurtful things to Martha when the situation calls for it; this would just be another level of that. And as far as Martha's concerned, it of course wouldn't be any different from him having sex with her as Philip in terms of the degree to which she'd perceive it as cheating.
-J
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:41 pm (UTC)But he'd bring that back to Martha. Maybe he'd just be guilty. Maybe he'd even have to confess he met some woman who came onto him. Maybe he wouldn't confess that he slept with her, but he might say he didn't and felt guilty about it anyway because he was tempted and he loves Martha, which would give Martha a chance to be the worldly one and love her rule-following husband for being so earnest and true.
But the possibilities with Philip for this are just endless.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:46 pm (UTC)That scenario would actually kind of work because it also gives Philip a psychological out if they're both roleplaying and it's not just him. Like it isn't just him acting like "Clark" while Elizabeth is just Elizabeth, but both of them playing something out, and with "Clark" being the victim of a honeytrap, it rather takes some of the blame off him as well.
So long until Wednesday!
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:42 pm (UTC)No, I don't think it's horrible because really I don't think it enters into his thinking in a huge way. On the grand scale of what he's doing to Martha, that's kind of small time, you know? But at the same time, since one/the point of "Clark" psychologically is to make spy work bearable/possible for Philip, dragging that other piece into it would have to be something that has positives that vastly outweigh the negatives that would come with it, which is why I kind of wonder if they'll try something more in the middle first (Philip using some of the qualities Elizabeth was turned on by in what she heard about "Clark" and allowing her to get some of what she wants while he also gets to protect some of what he wants.) And I could see them roleplaying like in one of the personalities that isn't so actively hurting someone (Scott, for example), or one of her random black leather-clad girls at the bar, it just seems messy to go there straight off with Clark.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 03:49 pm (UTC)It's from the Doylist perspective that Clark is doing horrible things to Martha. That's what Philip would see when he looked at the situation as Philip, who is controlling what Clark does.
But the Watsonian perspective--Clark's perspective--is different. From his pov he's a government agent who's secretly married this woman and just loves her and wants to be with her and is worried they'll get caught. When Martha says she's thinking of applying for a job in a non-espionage department, Philip is alarmed because it will make her useless. So he directs Clark to make sure she stays where she is.
That then gets translated into a different motivation for Clark--doesn't Martha want to be in a more important department? I mean, Clark takes his job so seriously and part of his attraction to Martha, although he wouldn't want her to know this, is that she's doing Important Work. So he genuinely does feel like she's selling herself short if she's just making more money in a department that doesn't excite him as much.
But this is more difficult if Clark's having an affair, because now it's reversed. Philip doesn't really want Clark to be bothered by it at all, but Clark knows he had an affair and has to deal with it as cheating on Martha in ways Philip wasn't cheating.
Iow, currently Clark isn't doing anything bad to Martha, Philip is. But if Clark cheated on her Clark would be hurting her.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 04:10 pm (UTC)That said, though, I do think he'd manage to find a way around (or more likely, through) the convolutedness of this. I just don't see him turning her down on this, and like Katia, I think it could be tremendously exciting to him in the end.
-J
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-30 05:18 pm (UTC)Plus it's again a great way to advance the way they're both moving this season. She's exploring how she feels about him and sex etc. He's considering figuring out who he is as a whole person instead of separate people.
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-29 04:57 pm (UTC)Like her whole teasing attitude isn't even real in itself. Like, she's teasing him, but as a cover for actually being curious and eager. And maybe that's the part that makes him wary, that he doesn't know what kind of complications this could bring. So when he says, "Scared, no" you wish you knew what he actually was.
Also what's great is it reminds me of that scene in I think the pilot where they're looking at pictures of Anneleise and she says "You didn't say she looked like that." Philip seems there, too, to not like Elizabeth commenting on that specific aspect, suggesting that there's anything like a real relationship there between the woman and Philip. Where as I think with her it's slightly different in the way she approaches it. He doesn't like listening to her having sex with a guy, but I don't think he feels like it's a different part of her he doesn't know. I think he kind of does get it in a general way, how it is with her when she has sex with a source. But she's just getting that it's a little different for him.
Like her characters tend to be consistent, like she is. She plays a sexually aggressive woman who's sexually aggressive in bed. She plays a girl intrigued by a powerful guy who likes powerful guys in bed. She plays a shy, skittish woman who's the same way in bed. Gregory is passionate about everything and passionate in bed. She probably thought Clark was the same idea, but then here's this suggestion of a disconnect. Which means you could be getting more than one guy with Philip...
Re: Philip as "Clark"
Date: 2014-03-29 06:18 pm (UTC)I know, right? They seem to do a lot of very vague questioning like, "How'd it go?" which suggests the details of what they do aren't something that's shared. So I read it as the second way, where he's unsure they're REALLY going to go there. And then she answers it with the "I don't know" to shrug it off but then a flirtatious smile that kind of says the opposite. It's like she definitely wants to go there, and Philip probably also wants to go there a little too... like I can't imagine him arguing with the idea of them being freer/less inhibited/more playful in bed as their relationship becomes more comfortable. It's probably even something he's craved because it's another form of emotional intimacy and that seems to be what he's wanted from the start. But the way she's doing it to avoid touching on any of *her* sensitive buttons is inadvertently poking a lot of Philip's sensitive buttons.
Right! Like that's totally her MO to avoid getting pegged with having the feelings even when it's clear that's what it is. It's the whole "the kids need to feel rooted" just about a different topic. And definitely I think Philip would worry about what it could really mean. It mixes spy work and their sex life in a way that's kind of scary and uncomfortable for someone who wants to keep that in separate heads. Like if she had come up to him in their bedroom and said she wanted to try some new stuff, he'd probably have been all for it, just like he probably would've come home that night at the motel if she'd said, "I want you back. Come home," rather than sidestepping it with excuses about the kids. But here's it's from the start been attached to Martha calling "Clark" an animal, and then her teasing that he has some explaining to do, which seems like another excuse to bring it up in addition to making it sound like it's really *Philip* who has some explaining to do (to her!), and then her wanting "Clark" in bed, which stirs things up in a way he doesn't like to do.
And I think it's further upsetting in the same way the revelation about Gregory was to Philip... it's not even so much the sex part, but rather the secrecy and the holding back of something that could represent a "truer" version of oneself. It's almost like here even though they're talking about sex, it's really the emotional aspect of holding back that he, Philip, might have this side of what he personally might find enjoyable in bed that he never shows her, Elizabeth, that would be more upsetting than just that he was doing whatever because it was what Martha would respond to. Not that when he's doing it with Martha that he's enjoying it at all, but rather that from watching them on the couch together all snuggled and spooned as they talk, it's a very intimate moment in what they're discussing about their histories and it would feel like a betrayal of sorts if there's this repertoire of things that are on the table when he's going over to Martha's, perhaps even things that he'd like to do in their real relationship, and he's carefully holding that back just like she held back her feelings all those years.
I think I'm failing to put into words what I mean, but the two moments kind of feel similar to me.
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Date: 2014-03-29 03:21 am (UTC)And damn it, Oleg's back. Maybe he can be sent to Cuba and left behind when the "Special Period" starts.
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Date: 2014-03-29 07:46 pm (UTC)Nobody likes Oleg? That would explain why I'm the only showing up for his fan club meetings ;-)
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Date: 2014-03-29 08:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-29 09:45 pm (UTC)Yah, Oleg wouldn't like that too much. :P