Question of the week #54

[treonb]

How do you believe the man behind Philip Jennings really feels about Martha?

You can expect spoilers for the entire first three seasons in the comments.

(There's no expiration date on these questions, so if you're reading this post months later and feel like jumping in, please do.)

Comments

[treonb]

Pity? Or maybe really trying not to think.

[sistermagpie]

I think the more time he spends with her the more he starts to see her as a real innocent and loving person. The type of person who least deserves the way she's been treated and who keeps confirming that feeling by the way she accepts him even when she finds out what he is. I think when he said "She loves me" to explain why she wouldn't tell on him, he was speaking about a way he'd come to understand her, that this is a person very much motivated by love (which is something he can relate to, obviously). Like when she talked about wanting to adopt a kid to essentially give a kid who wouldn't other wise have it love, that just confirmed she was one of the "good ones" to him, the kind of person he'd rather protect than exploit.

This is probably even more important to him when he's got Gabriel who was "supposed to protect him" seeming like the enemy. On some level I think he thinks Martha gets it where Gabriel doesn't.

God, the more I think about it the more parallels there are between Poor Martha and Poor Philip. Gabriel sometimes really does try to hit the same buttons with him, only he doesn't buy it. (I mean, the three things Gabriel hits the hardest are Philip being "the best," Philip needing to protect others and Philip craving love--that last bit is like Martha.)

[soupytwist]

Oh man that parallels point is an EXCELLENT one. I definitely agree - and I think as time goes on, Philip sees more of those parallels and starts to see her situation in a deeper way.

[soupytwist]

I think he probably isn't 100% sure himself, because I think a lot of his feelings about Martha are tied in to his feelings about his job and his family. I think he probably fears her more than we as viewers might expect, because she has a whole load of potential power over his life, and still does even now she sort-of-knows.

Otherwise, I think he feels bad at treating her that way, but given they've been fake-together for a long time now, I think that until it all blew up the Martha thing was also part of his routine. I think he'd probably resent that a bit - the time away from Elizabeth and the kids if nothing else. And I think he'd probably look down on her a little bit, for being manipulated. I don't think he'd want to, and I don't think those would be feelings he'd encourage, but I don't think you can be a spy doing that sort of thing without at least SOME of that detachment, as a coping mechanism if nothing else. Philip's naturally very empathetic and I think he does care about her - but I think that his job would force a very harsh level of utility over that as well, even while Philip's finding that really tough on his own account.

[sistermagpie]

I'm sure there are times where she's almost like having an exotic pet. There's times he just doesn't feel like going over to walk and feed it when he'd rather be with his family. But not only will he get killed if he doesn't, he feels a responsibility. It was pretty fascinating the way Martha, of all people, seems to be such a sticking point to Elizabeth. It makes so much sense, though. She and Philip also started out with a fake marriage, one of the things they share is the intimacy of that long life together, and then Martha's wanting kids etc. She's like a flipside of Gregory--he was somebody Elizabeth kept secret who was supposed to be the "real" relationship, Martha's somebody Elizabeth's always been in on who's supposed to be the professional relationship. But since this is Philip, not Elizabeth, she never feels quite sure of him because she doesn't ever completely understand him.

It's just great the idea of Keri Russell being believably insecure about Martha.

[soupytwist]

Ohh yeah there's definitely a lot of responsibility there - in both the good 'he cares' way and the 'oh god it's Monday again and I still have to get up and go to work and talk to Martha about furnishings' way.

And I really do love Elizabeth having those feelings about Matha too, definitely! I love your flipside-of-Gregory analysis, that's spot on. And I think it also hits into the weird levels of real vs fake that is their lives. Philip's married to Elizabeth, and the Martha marriage is fake on most levels, but the time spent as Clark being married to Martha is also literal actual time that has happened, that he spent with Martha, not with Elizabeth. Elizabeth doesn't like to think about those fuzzy grey areas, but she's not unaware of them.

[theplatonicnonyeah]

I choose to believe what Matthew Rhys himself has said about Philip, that he doesn't love Martha, but feels a strong responsibility for her welfare. I think that the longer their relationship has lasted the more acutely aware he has become of how vulnerable Martha is in so many ways. And in the last few episodes he really saw her cracking under the pressure of a possible reveal.

I am just dying to know what happened after the wig removal. I really wonder how that affected Martha and apparently informed her decision to stay. Because somehow I don't think she's afraid of Clark. At least not yet.

I do also wonder if their intimacy will or has stopped. It seems to me that Philip undertook that part more as a chore than out of desire and so it may be possible that Martha now realises she has been lied to in bed also.

In a way, the sex in their relationship is one of the more interesting aspects of it all. Especially seeing how it was given almost a whole episode worth of conflict between Philip and Elizabeth. How much of it was Philip "making it real" and how much was him just having different sex with a different woman and perhaps even enjoying the variety?

I'm rambling - as always! But the sex that the Jennings are having is so loaded with other things: power, politics, lies, honesty. Unlike most regular people, they rarely appear to have genuine sex, as in listening to their own needs and acting on them. But how much of that can be controlled? We had this debate about the oral sex scene with Elizabeth, where some of us thought she was actually enjoying it and therefore feeling uncomfortable, because she felt out of control.

So, does Philip ever feel out of control with Martha?

[sistermagpie]

I do also wonder if their intimacy will or has stopped. It seems to me that Philip undertook that part more as a chore than out of desire and so it may be possible that Martha now realises she has been lied to in bed also.

That's interesting--to me it seems like if Martha didn't believe that part of her relationship it would be over, and that part of Philip revealing himself was to convince her that he genuinely loved her romantically. They seem to have had sex after the initial reveal, when she realized he was a spy, and after that they were having dinner with wine and turning over a new page. He was even making noises about the two of them going away together.

I took the beginning of the reveal scene as Martha speaking to her actual husband who she thinks fell in love with her against orders, but telling him that him loving her wasn't enough--until he made himself all the more vulnerable.

[theplatonicnonyeah]

You're right. I had forgotten about that scene after she realised who he was, but before the actual wig removal. But I think it still leaves the option open for her to start questioning everything in their relationship. If she's clever enough, which I do think she is.

On the other hand, we've had clever Stan not realising who the Jennings are for three seasons now... ;-)

[treonb]

It's not a matter of being clever, she's facing serious cognitive dissonance and she wants to believe that she can't be wrong about everything.

Though I think they're overdoing it.

[jae]

I don't think Philip is sexually attracted to Martha at all. And I take Matthew Rhys' comments on how his character doesn't love Martha as a sign that his character is not in love with Martha, which is also pretty clear. However, I do find it hard to believe that the doesn't genuinely love her in a non-sexual, non-romantic way, at least on some level. He was able to find it in himself to "make it real" enough with her to swear to her that he loved her, after all.

Other things: I think some of the time, he feels responsible for her and/or guilty about what he's done to her. I think she drives him utterly up a tree sometimes, and at those times he resents all the time he has to spend with her. I think he feels relieved that he can still control her as deftly as he manages to, but I also think he internally rolls her eyes at her when it works. He'd respect her more if she figured him out.

-J

[sistermagpie]

Reading your comment I thought of Philip saying that Paige was "strong--like her mother" to Gabriel--and that was before I got to your second paragraph, because I was thinking that for Philip I don't think he'd really be able to be in love with someone or even all much sexually attracted to them if they weren't strong.

I don't think it's a case of contempt, exactly, though there's probably some condescension there. But I think he really needs somebody he *doesn't* feel like he always has to take care of and so while I think he loves somebody like Martha in the sense that she's got a pure heart that needs to be protected, he couldn't give his own heart to that person. Which also kind of makes their whole "you're not my daddy" fight more interesting. I've seen comments some places where people think he should be with Martha because she acts more like a wife and I just think...wow, I would not want to be married to YOU.

Sometimes I think he might be guilty of projecting what he wants to say in this way (just as everybody is), and that's something he seems to do with Paige. Not that Paige is actually weak or anything, but I get the sense that he sees all her rebellions and times she's being difficult in the best possible light, as a sign that she's a strong person. With Henry he seems to concentrate more on the child aspect of it all. Remember even when he and Elizabeth were talking about the kids learning to walk and he said Paige was always so graceful like a ballet dancer and Elizabeth was like...wtf? She was a klutz.

[jae]

while I think he loves somebody like Martha in the sense that she's got a pure heart that needs to be protected, he couldn't give his own heart to that person.

Yes yes yes, this. I do think a part of him loves Martha's pure heart, but he can't envision himself (his real self) with someone like that at all.

Then again, I don't know that he knows how to give his own heart to Elizabeth, either. Not really--he wants to, but he only manages it sometimes and in small bits. But that's another topic...

-J

[theplatonicnonyeah]

Which also kind of makes their whole "you're not my daddy" fight more interesting.

I presume you mean Philip and Elizabeth here, because Martha and Clark never had that fight. But I do agree with you that Martha being a better wife is just...wow, no. For all her kindness and eagerness to please, she is also a fiercely independent woman, who works hard for her living. She's not a push-over, but she's gentler than Elizabeth.

[sistermagpie]

Oh definitely I meant them. Since we were talking about Philip needing someone he doesn't feel like he has to protect. He flipped into that mode with Elizabeth when they started getting together and she was like DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! And at first he was all "that's what husbands do!" but I think ultimately he really loved the idea that it didn't have to be what husbands did.

Martha I think is definitely someone he feels like he has to protect since he's placed her in this situation and she doesn't deal with the really dirty stuff Philip and Elizabeth do.

[treonb]

I think he feels relieved that he can still control her as deftly as he manages to, but I also think he internally rolls her eyes at her when it works. He'd respect her more if she figured him out.

That's really tragic. He might respect her more, but it would be the end of him (or her). But it makes me think that he might actually be upset at her and blame her for his predicament. If it wasn't for her, he wouldn't have had to kill that tech guy.

[theplatonicnonyeah]

No, I don't think he's sexually attracted to her either. He was very reluctant to begin sexual relations with her, if I recall season 1 correctly. I suppose he knew it would complicate things at home as well as with Martha herself.

But in some scenes from their domestic "bliss" I got the feeling he was more relaxed that in his real home. It was as if he liked being a regular husband, who could sit at the table and be served (and then go to bed for some satisfactory sex). Prior to the reveal there was no real conflict in their house - at least not until Martha started talking about children. With Elizabeth he seems to be almost constantly on edge, because they both have such strong feelings regarding key ideological issues.

Having said that, I do also agree with Sistermaphie below, that Philip can probably only love and truly respect someone who doesn't just give in to him.