Episode discussion post: "Salang Pass"

[jae]

Aired:
25 February 2015 in the U.S. and Canada

This is a discussion post for episode 305 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season three, episode five.)

Original promo trailer

"The Americans - 3x05 | Promo "Salang Pass" | FX [HD]" (Watch on YouTube)

Episode recaps

From the AV Club
From Hitfix
From the Wall Street Journal
From Slant
From Paste Magazine
From People's World
From We Got This Covered
From TV Ate My Wardrobe
From Starpulse
From Geeks of Doom

Comments

Philip's History, Sexual Dilemmas, and Paige's Baptism

[maidenjedi]

There was a ton about this episode that I look forward to talking about with everyone, but the first thing absolutely has to be the glimpse we got into Philip's sex worker training, there at the end. That was harrowing, and so sad. And Elizabeth's question! Exactly what I hoped she wouldn't voice, because the answer could only hurt. My sympathies are totally with Philip right now.

Martha pushing the adoption thing on Clark just bothers me, and it is so going to be the destruction of that relationship (of Martha?). I really think so.

The situation with Kimberly is simultaneously creepy as hell and terribly sad. It isn't any wonder to me that Philip is struggling with corruption of innocence, now that he has a daughter who could be corrupted. I doubt he's ever felt it quite this deeply before, and the Kimberly situation couldn't have happened at a worse time for him.

I meant to chime in last week to say this: I think P. and E. have extremely different backgrounds that are feeding their reactions to Paige now. We've seen, and heard, how E.'s father was actually a deserter, and her mother dedicated to the cause and the Party to the point of being willing to sacrifice her daughter. To E., identification with the USSR is synonymous to family identification. She can't separate the two. P. on the other hand....I've long thought it likely that he turned to the KGB, or was recruited, under very different circumstances. His mother didn't push him to it, neither did his father. We know that he was in love with a woman he either knew before the KGB or knew because of it. He's the more "romantic" of the two - I think he started out seeing this as adventure, versus E's thinking of it as a sworn duty. And if his mother or father or both pushed him into the KGB, it was with the idea that he could have a "better life" than they had - versus E., whose mother had no illusions.

Also - I think Philip is opposed to Paige's baptism, but something about the way he went about the dress-buying made me wonder if he doesn't have a deep, unrealized conflict about it. As if, in a way, he wants to support her decision, because he has begun to believe she should have choices. If only as an opposing viewpoint to the idea that she must be told about the KGB and that she must then join the cause.

Dress buying

[lovingboth]

'Of course' Philip is unhappy about the baptism, but I think he sees that you can't make someone believe in something.

So there's support because 'it's your choice, Paige', and 'this is what it feels like, Elizabeth', and 'it will make it harder for the KGB to recruit her, Philip'.

Plus I wonder if there's an element of 'the best way to get her to reject religion is to have her go along with an idiot like Pastor Tim - she'll realise sooner or later...'

Re: Martha and adoption

[saraqael]

Do you think that part of Philip actually wants to adopt a kid and have a family with Martha? I think that the more that Martha dangles the idea of kids and a family to 'Clark,' the harder it's going to be for Philip not to give in. His fake marriage might just turn into a real second family if he's not careful.

Paige's Baptism

[jae]

As if, in a way, he wants to support her decision, because he has begun to believe she should have choices.

This is EXACTLY how I read it. He's not pro-religion, but he's pro-choice, and becoming ever more so. And especially because that's the position he's taking in his conflict with Elizabeth, he of course HAD to volunteer to take her shopping.

-J

I has a sad, general review

[theplatonicnonyeah]

One of the few episodes of this series that has actually made me cry. (You may not know how attached I was to Gregory and what I felt about him dying in season 2. Some other time.)

On the surface this episode could be comical what with Philip having to juggle three different women (well, one underage girl) without exposing himself, but still keeping on track for his mission.

But the episode starts off with Martha taking Clark to a foster care centre, where they watch some children play. You can see Philip underneath the disguise (oh, how does Matthew do that?) almost warming to the idea, perhaps remembering his own children when they were younger. Then Martha delivers her punchline, as she talks about how the two of them have everything, but these children don't: "There are other kinds of love."

Throughout the episode Elizabeth and Philip have scenes in which they talk about their children, some discussions being more awkward than others. A stand-off of sorts at the dinner table with Stan, who poses the (to him) innocent question about Paige's baptism. Elizabeth sees Philip's dress shopping with Paige as betrayal. But what is he really doing?

References to age, growing up and coming of age abound. We learn that Kimmy is 15, but that she thinks "age is just a number". Such a natural sentiment for someone at that age. Haven't we all been there?

We learn that Gabriel is indeed quite ruthless. Philip shows up at his place for what seems like moral support, but what is also a handover of some pot for Kimmy. Gabriel says to Philip: "Conscience can be dangerous." He wants Philip to think of the bigger picture, and that in fact he is responsible for the whole outcome of the Afghan war, provided he plays his cards right with Kimmy.

My heart goes out to Kimmy. She is so alone and fragile. When she and "Jim" smoke on the veranda she says she wishes her father had "another family", because that would explain his constant absence in her life. The parallels with Philip's double life (lives!) are so poignant here.

And then finally we come to the end. Which broke my heart. Because poor Philip. What kind of effed up coming of age process did he have? And yes, finally the question I've been asking all this time about whether the KGB agents only had sex with persons of the opposite sex gets its answer. Granted, it takes the form of the TV trope "fat, ugly old man", but still - there it is. Philip has had sex with men. We've just never seen it on the show - yet?

The final exchange, which comes from the truth in a drug-enhanced confession from Philip, is so heartbreaking. Even with the little added two words after the pause. How can she ever forget that and not wonder every time they are together from this moment?
Elizabeth: "Do you have to 'make it real' with me?"
Philip: "Sometimes. (pause) Not now."

Final confession

[lovingboth]

Erm, is it just me or is some of the sex some of the time in a long-term relationship primarily for the other person rather than for you?

She could ask.

thoughts which are not deep at all

[alley_skywalker]

Wow, Stan and Oleg have some serious chemistry (and I don't mean that in exclusively a shipping way).

Gosh I remember HS - when older guys were SO much more attractive than your classmates.

Aww poor Kimberly. If she knew the truth she would think so much better of her dad (probably). And he probably wishes that he could tell her. It's a nice parallel there between Kimberly and her family and Phillip/Elizabeth and their kids.

OMG the sex training. Although, I figured they had to have had something like it. But gosh, at least the women were young and attractive/potentially attractive. Why were the guys all old-and-fat-dude? Sheesh.

Re: thoughts which are not deep at all

[theplatonicnonyeah]

Wow, Stan and Oleg have some serious chemistry (and I don't mean that in exclusively a shipping way).

Whoa! Stan and Philip all the way! ;-)
(Yes, I should really write that fanfic some time soon. Just need to finish a short story assignment...)

But gosh, at least the women were young and attractive/potentially attractive. Why were the guys all old-and-fat-dude?

Er, you did notice that the second woman was probably 70 years old...?
The first one was maybe 30, the second one was 70-ish, the third one was young and then there was the old man. But I do agree that they could have chosen a younger man quite as easily. The concept of the whole thing would have worked just as well.

Re: old and fat dudes

[sistermagpie]

I assume he was working up to it maybe? They'd start him out with a person that would appeal to his tastes, then move away to older women etc., and ultimately somebody that he's just not attracted to at all as a straight young man.

While watching thoughts

[lovingboth]

Poor Clark! Ha, he knows about the ups and downs of having children. Martha is looking more glamorous.

I knew it was Stan as soon as the coat appeared. I don't believe the FBI would do a swap for Nina - Stan would obviously like them to, but...

Ha at Elizabeth's expression at being told about the kid shopping. And after the 'I could almost do it...' comment! Elizabeth looks distinctly worried when talking about Kimberley, and about Elizabeth rather than Kimberley or Philip.

And after one of the most interesting Philip/Elizabeth conversations, there's more parental power struggle at the dinner table.

Philip doesn't find it difficult to play hard to get with her, does he?

Will Oleg's charm work on her...?

Ha at Philip's not giving advice on dating, despite having lots of practice, and talking about parenting instead.

Ah, that's who it was under the car.

Ha, at 'did you like it?' and we're back to the power struggle.

'Hey, I'm leaking info, why don't you?' doesn't sound like the best approach in this case.

Ha at the 'have some good drugs' and the comment about conscience being dangerous.

Philip's more interested in having a look in other rooms of course... The more she talks about her relationship with her father, the more reluctant Philip is to exploit her.

Someone else will remember when one of them waited up for the other like that.

Gosh, unexpected Philip backstory. Ah ha! Is this the first time we've had any indication that Philip is / has been expected to have sex with men? Elizabeth is very awake... and it gets even more interesting.

This episode has the most interesting set of conversations between the pair of them in a very long time.

Re: While watching thoughts

[saraqael]

I wondered who Elizabeth squished under the car, too. Was it Lisa's husband? That would make sense.

QR's Shorter Rambliew

[quantumreality]

- "Eat her up"??? O_O Good lord, what a strange turn of phrase, Martha.

- Oh, Martha, your idealized painting of a family. You have *no* idea who Clark really is.

- "Children" seems to be the theme this ep as Elizabeth also chats with Lisa in a park with her kids playing.

- Elizabeth spins a really good yarn and knows exactly how to talk to Lisa, mixing lies with the truth.

- Stan seems to *loom* when he wants to, heh. But why the hell is he talking to Oleg about Zinaida??? :O Aha, prisomer swap!

- Some echoes of the future into the past with Philip's chat with Yousaf!

- Philip is muy unhappy balancing all his spy shit with everyday commitments.

- Henry is a smartarse :P and pfffffff that "Mrs. Beeman" question out of the blue! Paige is all "wat" on her face and the grown-ups are like "um shit they're kinda divorced and maybe this is a bad idea" on their faces. LOL and then Paige is all like "ew my little brother's been fapping to her SUBJECT CHANGE KTHX"

- More eggshell stuff as Paige mentions her baptism.

- How does Philip not be so uncomfortable around that high schooler shindig I have no idea, but being a spy means beig a good actor, I guess.

- The problem with Kimberley's statements is that she's ignoring the fact that not every adult out there would respect her boundaries simply because cultural deference to elders is still A Thing. Unfortunately for her, Philip needs to cultivate her if he's gonna get in that house. I wonder if he has to take long showers after seeing Kimberley just to get the ick off.

- I wonder how Elizabeth got that house. Maybe through a dummy corporation and sone up-front cash from the KGB.

- Hmm. Do I detect some Les Yay between Lisa and Liz?

- Haaaaaaa the lady looks as unimpressed with Oleg's irreverent punk-ass kid attitude as Arkady was in Season 2. XD

- Oleg has a point about what a fake defector could do, and I think IRL there have actually been cases where "defectors" turned out to be anything but.

- Huh! Philip makes a smart choice, but Paige has clearly picked up on the need to be financially responsible and protests it's too much.

- Poor Stanboy. :(

- Whoa, Elizabeth, what the hell???? :O Ah, I see. Creating space for Lisa. Still, pretty grimdark as hell if you ask me.

- The Gabriel and Philip chat. Hmm.

- Another recurring theme seems to be the way children and parents can lose touch with one another as they grow and change.

- Oh man, I remember those popcorn thingies! XD

- Welp, Philip does what he needs to do now! And whew, that was a lucky escape!

- Philip flashback! Interesting realistic-as-hell training about "making it real" in order to be able to carry through sex with just about anyone. And ow @ "making it real" even with Elizabeth.

[saraqael]

Philip's sex training flashback was just about the most depressing thing this program has shown so far, IMO. Get in there and make it real, Philip. Have sex with grandmothers, gross older men, young women...anyone, everyone. Just make it real. Convince them. Convince yourself. How horrifying.

And now his job requires him to do whatever it takes to use a 15 year old girl to get information, including having sex with her if that's what it takes for him to have continued access to her house. Bad enough that Philip is repulsed by the idea, he also has Gabriel not so subtly telling him that the lives of all the Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan depend on Philip's success with this girl.

I thought it was an interesting development for Elizabeth that when Philip asked her if he should sleep with this kid, Elizabeth answered that she didn't know. S1 Elizabeth would have said, 'hell yes, do it' and then reported him to the Center again because he's questioning his duties. S3 Elizabeth, who is finally in love with her husband, sees how this situation is tormenting him and answers honestly that she doesn't know. It's not the answer he wanted to hear but it was honest. IMO it represents a change for Elizabeth because she's actually concerned about him and she also questions whether or not it's right to have sex with kids for the job. To me, it's as if we're seeing the tiniest crack in her 100% devotion to the mission because she's genuinely allowing herself to consider the morality of this situation and what it's doing to Philip.

That tiny thaw aside, they're still very much at odds over Paige. I liked the understated fight they had while Elizabeth was cleaning the tub. "Why did you buy her a baptism dress??? What are you doing??? Argh!!!" Scrub, scrub. Seethe, seethe. I have no sympathy for Elizabeth in this situation. I do understand that Elizabeth wants her daughter to know the truth about her heritage, but steering Paige into the KGB isn't right on any level. Her daughter is an American. The most Paige will ever be is a good, socially and politically active American. Elizabeth will never be able to turn Paige into a Russian socialist zealot. Philip knows this. Elizabeth doesn't. Elizabeth is so used to living life as a chameleon that she must truly think that her children will be able to shrug off their 'fake' American identities as easily as she herself can.

I've said this before, but I still think that there might come a point when Philip will want to defect simply to protect his children, if not himself. We know he wants to. This is like a big unspoken thing between Philip and Elizabeth. It's got to be hanging out there every time that Philip talks to Gabriel, too, like when Gabriel suggested that Philip might be 'confused'. Philip instantly replied that he's not confused. Philip doesn't dare show any sign to Gabriel that he's anything other than 100% devoted to the mission because Elizabeth already reported his loyalty once. He knows what his job is. But we know that his true loyalties are for his family first, his job second. At some point, something is going to break. My question isn't so much, what will Philip do, but what will Elizabeth do if/when their undercover situation becomes untenable.

There was one moment in this episode that made me laugh. I commented on it over on Twitter. (I'm Broceliande over there, btw). It was when Philip told Stan to bring his EST lady date over to their house for dinner 'to take the pressure off.' Ha! Because that's the absolute best thing this FBI agent could do. Bring a date who's obsessed with telling the truth about everything over to the house of a couple of deep undercover Soviet spies who are using their fake/real relationship with Stan to spy on him. I can't express just how much I love the weird, awkward, fake/real friendship between Philip and Stan. I truly, truly love it. Sure, they may end up killing each other in the end, but in the meantime they have an awesome fake/real friendship.

And Stan and Oleg teaming up to spy on/betray a potential Soviet undercover agent in order to save Nina. What!?! I did not see that coming. I love it so much. Seriously, this show is so brilliant that I can hardly bear it. I fear that it's all going to end in tragedy and tears so I'm just going to imagine that all these fantastic Soviet spies defect, and Stan gets fired because it turns out his best buddies are damned Ruskies, and they all go off to live together in the witness protection program somewhere really nice, like Vancouver, Canada, where they can all get to stop being Russians or Americans and just hang out and be cool together.

The answer Philip wanted to hear

[lovingboth]

Presumably, it was 'no, don't do it', but 'I don't know' is also a good one.

As you say, it's an improvement over S1 Elizabeth's.

Just how good is this show!

[jae]

Seriously, this show is so brilliant that I can hardly bear it.

I'm actually thinking that on a weekly basis these days. Can it really be that this show has never been better?

-J

Jae's thoughts on second watch

[jae]

Another great one. God, this show is good. Some thoughts:

• I am both weirded out and kind of blown away that Lisa is currently living in what must be a KGB safe house and she has no idea. Unless they bought a place for the purpose of this particular long-game mission, I suppose, but it really does seem like it must be a safe house.

• Okay, someone please tell me how it hasn't even come up on the show--even between Elizabeth and Philip--that Clark and Martha simply can't foster a child together! There's no way "Clark Westerfeld" would make it through even a rudimentary background check (as I'm sure "Philip Jennings" would), right? What am I missing?

• I fell a little bit in love with Henry Jennings this episode: "No matter how old you get, you're still working for the man." <3

• I understand that this was brought up in last week's discussion as well (I was travelling and couldn't participate, alas), but I'll bring it up here anyway: I feel somewhat less grossed out by the Philip/Kimmy thing because I really do feel like Kimmy is better off with Philip than she would be with the guys she'd otherwise be going for. Here's my logic: this is a girl who is acting out by attempting to seduce inappropriate older men. All of the inappropriate older men who would respond to that with anything other than "nooooo, inappropriate!" would be very very likely to use her for her body and mess with her head. So she's better off biding her time with the Russian spy who wants instead to use her for something else entirely, it seems (and who's going to put off having anything like sex as long as humanly possible).

• I loved Kimmy's friends trying to protect her. They're probably assholes, but there's a difference between assholes and predators, and they were smelling the latter.

• God, I am loving all of the Stan and Philip scenes this season. Also, Stan continues to break my heart in little ways. I love that he brought up his undercover experience--he didn't say anything about it, but maybe that was an opening.

• Speaking of Stan: Stan and Oleg teaming up is the weirdest twist, but now that it's happened I wonder how I didn't see it coming. They spent last season being antagonists for each other, so this seems like a great alternate way of exploring how these two men could interact.

• Lucia mention! (Sob. Yes, I loved her.) Man, this show does so well with continuity.

• Kimmy's monologue with "Jim" out on the back balcony of her parents' house was so sad. The bit about her parents being gone a lot and she doesn't know why, and it wouldn't surprise her if he just turned out to have some other family--that must have hit Philip well below the belt. I felt for both of them there, so much.

• A lot of other people have been talking about how uncomfortable they found the food fight, but I actually thought it was really sweet. I took that as Philip-as-Jim trying to really relate to her, but without making it directly sexual. You could read how he was acting as flirty, but I saw Philip-the-dad in that scene (which is probably more what Kimmy really needs anyway). As someone else already noted, there was even a scene in a previous episode that had Philip acting very much the same sort of way with Paige and Henry.

• As everybody else has said, the flashback at the end was just fantastic. First of all, the technique is so much subtler and just all-around awesome than the technique they used in season one, which makes me so happy! I am so proud of how this show has grown, writing-wise. It also strikes me that even this was part of the "parenting" theme of the episode: the motherland herself as (abusive) parent.

• The KGB sex training flashback also had to have been the "brothel" bits that sistermagpie's casting call sheets mentioned last fall, yes?

• The Slate podcast with the creators (which I listened to on the way to work, right after rewatching) mentioned that you saw five incarnations of Philip in this episode: Philip Jennings, Clark, Scott, Jim, and then finally Misha in flashback. That is mind-boggling. It must have been such a trip of an episode to shoot.

How to foster

[lovingboth]

You go to an agency that the KGB run. It would be foolish not to have one for when you need to 'buy a kid'.

Treon's thoughts

[treonb]

This episode was much slower-paced than previous episodes. I was thinking throughout that it's setting us up for the future, except that now that I think about it - that's what I said last ep.

So.. various thoughts:

* Why was it called "Salang Pass"? Besides that little snippet from the news.

* I liked how Elizabeth was working her target. Except for killing that guy. That was gruesome, though it was obvious he won't make it alive from under that car.

* Cone of silence - heh :-) Kind of ironic too.

* I remember we discussed somewhere the idea of a prisoner exchange to save Nina. It really doesn't make sense.

* Oleg can't find anything about Zinaida. But doesn't it mean something that they're not discussing plans to stop her? Or would Oleg not know about that either?

* For some reason I was sure Kimmy would show up when Philip & Paige went shopping. It would have been interesting, though I'm not sure what would have happened. They're both the same age, so maybe they even know each other. Have they brought up that point IC? Philip keeps saying Kimmy's young, but it's even worse that she's his daughter's age. Does he look at Kimmy and think of Paige?

* It's interesting how they're setting up Paige and Kimmy. Elizabeth's logic about Kimmy not knowing what her father did is really beyond me. Besides which, it sounds like Kimmy has serious family issues and no real mother figure.

* I started looking up actor ages. I thought Paige was older, and (of course?) Kimmy is not underage.

* As for that final conversation - they were two agents put together and expected to pretend they were married. I'd be surprised if Elizabeth didn't have to 'make it real' for quite a while there.

ETA: if this was a sitcom, then right after everybody agreed to change the subject and Paige brings up baptism, they would have gone back to discuss Sandra.

Salang Pass

[lovingboth]

In real life, this happened there a week before Brezhnev's death.

Have a look at this travelogue too.

Sistermagpie watches Salang Pass

[sistermagpie]

Well, wow, that was a complicated thing I don't even know how to talk about! Things that I remember, though...

Stan and Oleg's prisoner exchange still doesn't sound believable. But I like their common goal.

I feel like neither P or E is able to really articulate their own argument about Paige yet. Elizabeth's saying that Kimmie turned out badly not knowing her dad was the in CIA was very weak, and P's "you're the one singing hymns" still seemed kind of vague to me. They're suspicious and sense hostile intent but it's not always clear exactly what their next moves are.

Elizabeth's Shelly character is less subtle than she came across to me last season. Part of it is just that she only had one scene last year where she was giving a monologue that was really about Philip, but also now she's really trying to push Karen so she's playing up her glee at having money and wanting to have sex. So the Shelly character's gone from mourning her marriage or trying to save it, to being separated, to wanting to screw the hot guy who gives her money. She's trying to dangle this as an opportunity in front of Karen, but I honestly feel like it could backfire because if "Shelly" was a real person I wouldn't think her choices were that great.

Couldn't help but think of Elizabeth in S1 when Karen said she didn't miss Maurice's presence. She did miss Philip. Karen was pretty much the only person in this ep not longing with nostalgia for somebody's childhood: Stan for Matthew's, P&E for P&H, Kimmie for her own. Interesting that the one person who flashed back to their own childhood/adolescence was remembering something pretty awful.

Loved Philip and Elizabeth's biased memories of Paige being graceful with Philip remembering her so and Elizabeth reminding him of how she always fell down. This time Elizabeth had the more accurate memory.

Loved Henry attempting to be manly with Stan--I don't think he's quite looking for a father figure in the guy, but I think he does want to be one of the guys with Philip and him. That's a really nice way to be pushing Henry with Stan and Philip getting closer. (Though I wonder what he's going to think about EST lady.)

Loved Stan's admission that Matthew hates him and he just doesn't understand the kid at all--that was so clear last year. Philip seems to often be saying with Paige that he doesn't need to understand her, he'll just support what she wants for herself. I wonder if next week we'll get a sense of what Paige makes of this, if anything. Like does she see Philip trying to respect her choice? Stan's own story shows a different view: when Matthew rejected him he retreated, hurt, rather than understand him. I'm actually surprised we haven't yet seen a P/P convo about religion.

I note that Philip hasn't shared his real feelings about religion with Stan since he's so congratulatory about it.

During the convo with Stan and Philip I completely forgot that Philip was a spy. That is, not that he was a spy but that he was spying on Stan. His advice was clearly really Philip's advice and based on his real life. And what interesting advice it was, talking about getting the kid alone away from the other influence. Not sure what all he meant there. Because he wasn't working Paige in the dress shop, exactly. But I think he may have felt that without Elizabeth there and the two of them being that tight pair he was seeing her as an individual rather than the girl she became with her parents. I don't get the impression he sees E as an evil influence on her or anything, though.

This may send them into a darker battle if Philip is starting to get some active ideas of how to treat Paige instead of just passively resisting Elizabeth, because Gabriel's laid the groundwork for telling Elizabeth to turn on him.

Paige dropped $600 not long ago and now she's got enough to buy a nice dress for herself, even if it's not as nice as the one Philip bought? She has no job. Does she just get an allowance? Whatever, Philip is again indulging his own love to indulge. I think Paige showed here that she gets that it's Elizabeth for whom she has to perform the "I'll pay for it myself!" card where Dad might just give her a gift. I wonder if she, too, assumes E had a worse childhood.

I like, btw, that Philip after goofing around chose the nicest dress. Nice callback to Yaz--he didn't get this one from Kimmie either. It was a small scene but it encapsulated the old P/P dynamic (him playing dumb and vetoing grown up dresses) while also having him get her enough to choose a dress she'd like. Of course, none of this makes him any less of a liar, so it won't necessarily save him.

Here's what I think about the food fight. I thought it was brilliant, because throughout their time at her house Philip kept naturally trying to treat her like Paige--which, btw, seems to be what she really misses (being cherished by a dad). She misses the dad she had when she was younger just as Philip misses being a dad of younger children. The kitchen scene was totally on the edge there.

Which made the kiss at the end all the more weird--and perfectly explained by the flashbacks. Philip really can just turn it off and turn it on, so he's not really capable in a situation like this of knowing how to play it.

I mean, I think he gets that Kimmie's into daddy figures and knows that this often leads to wanting sex with older guys because it's not like Jim can adopt this girl. But it seemed fitting that Philip seemed much more present in the scenes where he was acting like a dad and just blank when kissing her.

Also, of course, she kissed him. And throughout Philip was struggling with having things thrust on him and looking for what choice he would make. Martha's dragging him to foster care no matter what he says, Paige has another announcement about wanting a dress, Elizabeth's obviously still full steam ahead on her plan, Kimmie wants sex. There's places where he can play a little hard to get (what on earth was Kimmie thinking bringing him to a high school hang out if she's trying to pass for 18? Perhaps this is a signal she really doesn't want to pass for 18 and is confused in her motives?) but often he's just struggling with his natural tendency to give people want they want to keep things on track.

Also he's got his own father figure telling him he's confused and getting the standard teen response of "I'm not confused." I love that the podcast said we saw so many versions of Philip in this ep and they sort of got younger by the end. I love just how much of a teenager he was in the last part of the ep. First trying to defend himself against Gabriel's telling him he's confused, and Gabriel's telling him how Elizabeth is.

I note, btw, that where Gabriel plays to Elizabeth's loyalty and duty to Elizabeth with Philip he stresses that he must take care of and protect people.

Anyway, then he comes home at the end to Elizabeth and not only does he explicitly describe himself as a teenager running out of her house, but Elizabeth asks him if he's high like an adolescent caught out by his mom. (It was an odd moment, really, since why would she be surprised or much bring it up in that way? But then, Elizabeth seemed to be feeling a lot of anxiety in all her scenes with Philip in this ep as if he was another wayward adolescent slipping away.) So he's feeling like a kid, being almost treated as a kid, and then we get the flashback to him actually being a kid.

Then he even asks her what he should do--like maybe after spending a whole ep with everyone telling him what he should do he really is confused and wants to ask the person he actually trusts. And Elizabeth doesn't betray that trust because she says she doesn't know. For all Elizabeth's claims about what they should do with Paige this is the second ep with Philip asking what they/he should do and Elizabeth saying "I don't know" rather than taking the opportunity to tell him.

I think underneath she really is still scared at doing something without Philip, not because she can't act alone but because she knows that he often represents important things in herself she can't voice. Maybe this is also brought up through her seeing Philip hit on a girl Paige's age--it's a bit like watching what she claims she wants: Philip turning Paige into an asset. Maybe she doesn't really like how it looks--or feels it might turn Philip into someone else.

Finally, nothing not to love in those flashbacks. I really like Elizabeth specifically bringing up the potential differences for him as a man. I'm always surprised how often I hear people say that E does more honeytrapping than P when the show seems to be hitting it really hard this season how much Philip does this, often with more intimacy required. They really do seem to flip the gender roles on this subject, often questioning what part of the sex work is difficult.

The food fight / Philip-and-Kimmy scenes

[jae]

I love your take on the Philip-and-Kimmy stuff! The insight about him feeling like a kid, being treated like a kid, and then being a kid is particularly good. He also has to be feeling the way his own adolescence was kind of flushed away, and now he's doing the same to someone else.

-J

Philip's flashback

[sistermagpie]

I forgot another thing that struck me about the flashback scene--an obvious thing but want to give props to the show--was the little ticks around it. With Elizabeth her flashbacks tend to be very straightforward--she thinks about something in her past or else we just see something in her past.

With Philip we've seen how reluctant he is to ever access this stuff. In "The Deal" he spent a whole night with a guy hammering at him on the subject before he almost by accident comes out with "I like the cold" in a dream-like way.

At Kimmie's he was able to search the house and run out so I would have believed he barely smoked anything and just pretended. It's only at home with Elizabeth where, also exhausted, he seems stoned and that maybe makes the past more present.

But then they also really continue that by making Philip's breathing really audible in the flashback scenes--like he really is somebody who's stoned and having a druggie reverie. His breathing etc. just made the whole thing feel way different than Elizabeth's flashbacks. Where hers seem ordered and often seem to logically explain or justify her current position and thoughts, Philip's are distorted, without a clear emotional content, and less objective thanks to the breathing which almost gives the impression of being inside a diver's bell. Where Elizabeth's memory/dream about her mother feels like objective evidence (even if she might not see all the evidence in it), Philip's really seems to be locked inside his head.

Which is not to imply that I think it's supposed to be false at all. Just that it almost seems like something that's with him in a different way than hers--more like a haunting than a memory. She seems to have decided on a meaning for her memories while he really hasn't.

Which I guess is also another reason it's cool to remember that this is another version of the guy: Scott, Jim, Clark and Philip don't have this memory. This is strictly Mischa.

Re: Philip's flashback

[jae]

Interesting. I had taken those differences as being an indication that the writing team had grown, and were trying new (and much subtler) techniques for doing flashbacks. I like your interpretation better, though.

-J

Selena's belated watching

[selenak]

I only just now had the chance to watch!

This show. This show. It really has become one of the most complex things on tv right now, and why it doesn't get all the awards in the world, I can't understand.

And an acting goldmine. And a continuity treasure, because a new watcher would not understand the scenes between, say, Oleg and Stan at all. Mind you, nothing ever is perfect, and so we also get a continuity glitch - last episode Philip told Stan he was single now and to go dating again, this episode Philip says to Stan "but wasn't the whole point of going to EST to get Sandra back?", so I suspect some lack of coordination between the scriptwriters of last week and this week. But it's only a minor, minor point it what otherwise is a continuity feast. Stan's confession re: Nina to Sandra - and her reaction - seems to have acted as a catalyst; he accepts now that Sandra has moved on, this whole getting-her-back-idea won't work, and when Henry brings up Sandra at dinner (btw, love that Single!Stan has taken to have dinner with the Jennings), he doesn't fall into an angst fest but reacts well. Also, I love that he has a conversation with Philip about Matthew, which I was hoping would happen at some point, but more about this when I get to investigation of parenthood in the episode. Most amazingly and fascinatingly though: Stan approaches Oleg as a way to find out whether his hunch about Zinaida being a plant is real - and I can't tell whether Stan's "confirm Zinaida is a double to me and we'll trade her for Nina, thereby saving Nina" is sincere or whether he's doing to Oleg precisely what the KGB did to him last season. Stan, have you started Operation Turning Oleg? Either way, Oleg's angry monologue and stunt with the gun two episodes ago must have made him realise not only that Oleg loved/loves Nina (which is not what the cover story was that Nina told him in s2, where Oleg was presented as a greedy blackmailer) but also what exactly Oleg was doing (i.e. that it was an attempt to turn him with Nina as leverage from the start). I could believe both - that Stan still loves Nina enough to want to save her and now he's found a way that could work, and that Stan, having figured it out, is mainly after the truth about Zinaida and has realised Oleg is the one KGB official whom he can have emotional leverage on.

(Sidenote: I had wondered in the first episode where Zinaida appeared whether Stan would trade her for Nina, but then I assumed Zinaida was genuine and Stan would do it in a fool for love way, not that he would do it as a smart counterintellegence move. Stan, you're back in the game, and how.)

As Gabriel - who is really a great handler in that scene, with the mixture of professional flattery, emotional reassurance, emotional pressure and gentle firmness - summarizes, Philip currently has to juggle Martha wanting a child with Clark, the ongoing Paige crisis and Kimberley the teenager as an asset. And it all bleeds into each other. I assumed Philip-as-Clark was just humoring Martha by going with her to the children center to watch the toddlers, but then Philip tells Elizabeth that he is actually tempted to give in on the child front. (Elizabeth's facial expression to that one is great, and I don't think it's because of the insane logistics - there's no way Clark and Martha could foster a child without Clark's background being checked. But that's not why Elizabeth's face falls.) And you know, it makes some type of psychological sense. Which is why I love we get the Stan and Philip conversation about Matthew in this particular episode. Stan can't relate to current, teenage Matthew anymore. Matthew is an alien. He could to child!Matthew. Philip, engaging in a bout of nostalgia about Henry and Paige as small kids with Elizabeth, has always enjoyed being a father, and been good at it, but last season, teenage Paige turned into an alien he had arguments with, and that was before the ghastly news about the second generation program became known. This season, he's engaged in the schizophrenic task of on the one hand wanting to save his daughter from spydom (leaving aside for the moment of how unlikely Paige is to actually want to become an agent) and on the other making a teenage girl exactly her age (I don't think it's a coincidence we find out Kimberly is 15 the episode after Paige's 15th birthday) and in what looks increasingly like similar circumstances into an asset. The Philip/Jim (as sistermagpie said, I don't think it's a coincidence Philip picked an alias that rhymes with Tim, as in Paige's Pastor) and Kimberley scenes manage to be both incredibly uncomfortable (though he hasn't done anything sexual yet) and riveting, because the show makes Kimberly into a real person. (Who is also not sexualized by the camera, or made to look Lolita-esque.) Who has a father working as a spy which she doesn't know, who is often absent, she doesn't know where, her lonely present clashes with her happy childhood memories. "If someone told me he has a second family elsewhere, I'd be, like, yeah, that eplains it", says Kimmie, and Philip who has indulged briefly in a fantasy of Clark adopting a small kid with Martha didn't even have to hear that to get the parallel point, but it underscores it. What "Jim" does with Kimberly so far is paternal more than anything else - listening to her, joking with her in the kitchen, foodfight, very much in the same playful way Philip did with Paige and Henry in the early episodes of the show. Except that when he finds the sleeping Kimberly on the sofa, she wakes up and kisses him, and if her parents hadn't come home, it's likely Philip this time would have gone through with the seduction routine.

Which leads into the final scene with Elizabeth and Philip when he comes home, which is one of the show's richest so far, and that's saying something. We've known Philip was troubled by the idea of "using someone that young" from the start, but this conversation is the first time where it's made clear that so is Elizabeth (the mutual "I don't know", as opposed to Elizabeth repeating the party line that she said at the start of this, that Afghanistan is a hard target (with the implication this justifies everything)). And this is the first time we see them talk about the way they were trained to have sex with people as young (and we know they were very young, though not as young as Kimberly) agents. This s how has practically a patent on how to make sex an important part of characterisation instead of just doing sex scenes for viewing numbers. Elizabeth and Philp don't have sex in that conversation, but they're lying in their bed together, going from not looking to looking at each other, and it's both intimate and painful and tender. Meanwhile, we get Philip's flashbacks to his training, which is what tv tropes call fan disservice, as the women he has sex with except for the first are far heavier and older than anyone you usually see having sex on tv, and at the end of the sequence is a middle aged paunchy man removing his trousers. (Thereby, the show clears up something I've been wondering about - yes, the KGB in this universe acknowledges not all targets are going to be straight.) And then comes something that ties this scene to Behind the Red Room last season, when Elizabeth insisted to find out what "Clark" did with Martha, and even to her reaction in season 1 when she finds out Philip lied to her about Irina. "They told us to make it real for us", says Philip. "Is that what you do with Martha?" asks Elizabeth. "I guess." And then comes the unexpected and yet entirely character prepared question and answer: "Do you have to make it real with me?" And Philip, looking at her, stroking her cheek, says "Sometimes".

I can't think of another show who goes their with their main couple. But this show always took serious that Philip and Elizabeth are trained liars, day in, day out, in every area, and that the question of whether they can be truthful to each other was one of the big challenges. What bothered Elizabeth, whose personas often carry parts of herself, ever since Martha raved to "Jennifer" about how Clark was in bed was the idea of Philip showing a true part of himself there. What bothered her with Irina wasn't the sex per se but that he lied about it when she directly asked him, and that she couldn't tell until Claudia told her. Because how can you ever tell the difference, what's true and what's faked? Especially if it's someone like Philip who behind his easy going Philiip Jennings persona is far more private and walled against revealing truths about himself than Elizabeth?

The amazing thing is that this admission about lying in the most intimate way - when having sex with, making love to each other - "Sometimes" - works actually as the opposite of alienation. They've been arguing through much of the last episodes, but at this moment, they're with each other again in every sense. When he adds "not now", they keep looking at each other and she moves towards him, it's like a leap of faith on her part.


Speculation for future episodes: Gabriel says that the decision is Philip's but "I don't see how you can run her (as an asset) in the long term without it", i.e. without "Jim" having sex with Kimberly. Combined with the mutual "I don't know"s from Philip and Elizabeth later, it makes me wonder whether Philip will indeed figure out a way to not have sex with Kimberly while using her as an asset. (Jim could always declare he can't possibly because she's a minor, and that they'll have to wait until she's legal, or that he respects her too much not to wait or what not.) But while that would remove one squick for him and the audience, it still doesn't change he'd exploit Kimberly emotionally. Possibly destroy her emotionally, if she becomes attached to "Jim" as a second father figure instead of as a lover.

(...and while we're at the overlaping emotions and responsibilities, Gabriel as this season shows is a father figure for both Philip and Elizabeth. Who has to motivate them to do stuff just like this.)

Ongoing Afghanistan then and today parallels: are now enlarged to Afghanistan and Pakistan then and today, as this episode's installment has Yousef telling "Scott" of how the fundamentalists are everywhere now in Pakistan as well, people are growing beards and they now get asked how religious they are.

Lastly: Elizabeth's asset Lisa is extremely sympathetic, and now I'm afraid for her, too, because if someone finds out the truth her life will be ruined. Again: the genius of this show. The targets and marks are real people, instead of solely a series of dupes never getting characterisation, with the audience never feeling for them. This is how you do morally grey.

Continuity

[lovingboth]

I don't see Philip's different comments to Stan as being in any way inconsistent - last week, he suggested going for it, only to be told that Stan doesn't regard himself as single.

This week, he's going on what Stan said then... but following yet another post-meeting visit to Sandra, Stan is realising that he is.

Random Musings on Salang Pass & other stuff

[lisa_lnc]

Haven't had the chance to re-watch this episode since it aired, but I'll give this post a shot...

Food fight scene--
I'm pretty sure that the writers and the actors never intended the scene to give off any sexual innuendos. Even though I knew the scene was supposed to be Philip having innocent fun with Kimmy, I still felt slightly uncomfortable when I saw it unfold. It's like the food fight scene "felt" like a sex scene to me, even though my brain kept on shouting, 'Ugh, snap out of it --Philip is just joking around like he does with Paige+Henry.' I have no clue if that made any sense-lol

I think the scene unsettled me and "felt" like watching sex, because I was projecting a culmination of several external influences onto the scene. First, I wonder if I would have reacted differently to the food fight scene if the "teeth-pulling-as-a-metaphor-for-sex" scene wasn't so recent in my memory. The teeth-pulling scene was the first time I remember TA depict sex without showing sex and now it's like my brain is re-wired to look out for other ways the show may depict sex without showing sex. Second, there's that tv/commercial trope of equating food with sex and simultaneously knowing that Philip could potentially have sex with Kimmy later that night. I think I've been inundated with too many commercials where women make sensual noises and emote orgasmic faces while eating yogurt and ice cream (or frozen yogurt) :-P

Car-dropping scene--
Once again, this scene had folks admonishing E for being cold-hearted. I can give E "a pass" for shooting someone when she's under an immediate and direct safety threat. There's no evidence whatsoever that this Northrop worker posed any immediate or direct safety threat to her or to the Jennings. I can also give E "a pass" when she shoots a power-player (e.g., a leader who formulates and passes down orders to kill Soviets). However, this Northrop worker was just some random rank-and-file worker, who probably viewed his job as a way to earn a living rather than as some patriotic/idealogical-based duty. Finally, I can give E "a pass" when I see physical manifestations of remorse on her face before or after she kills someone (e.g., when she killed Adam Dorwin in S1). I didn't see any signs of remorse or emotion when she killed the Northrop guy. I think the car-dropping scene marked the first time I had an extremely hard time giving E "a pass."

This "car-dropping" scene inspired me to take a cursory inventory of all the people E has killed or almost killed (*note: i may be forgetting some of the victims). In S1's "In Control," E shot the innocent neighborhood security officer. I remember the uproar that scene caused--it solidified E's reputation as the "cold-hearted one." I also recall the J's trying to defend E's action by saying that E wasn't being cold-hearted and that she shot the officer purely for survival purposes, as the officer posed an immediate danger to P&E's cover. I agreed with the J's and I forgave her. Next, in S1's "Comint," she shoots and kills Adam Dorwin, but after E shot him, I could tell from E's face how much the killing weighed on her. I empathized with E, because I *saw* she did not want to kill him. Then, in S1's "Covert War," E *almost* shot Paterson (the CIA guy who shot Zhukov) out of angry revenge, but came to her senses and did something humane (or tactical?) and let him go -- alive. In S2, E almost killed the innocent warehouse worker but let him go because she empathized with him being a parent to three young boys. Next up, E shot Lucia and--if I recall correctly-- that was purely because she was in a direct standoff/ safety threat from Larrick. Finally, E poisoned Javid (Yousaf's boss), but I considered Javid a "power-player" actively planning alongside the CIA to overthrow Soviets in Afghanistan. I bet I'm missing some of E's other killings/almost killings....

I don't know if killing the Northrop worker was an absolute necessity. I don't know if killing him will be worth it in the end--who knows how valuable Lisa will be to E. Yes, I know that there are innocent victims in all types of wars, but still...I can't help but feel disappointed in E after "Salang Pass." I guess it's because I always root for E to do my version of the "right" thing: spare as many innocent lives as possible. Ok, I need to calm down--it's just a tv show :-P

Re: Random Musings on Salang Pass & other stuff

[sistermagpie]

Elizabeth didn't actually shoot Lucia. She just refrained from shooting Larrick so he could choke her to death.

I agree about the food scene--I think we're supposed to feel, if not that the scene is sexual, that there's still something wrong with it. Because even if Philip and Kimmie aren't trying to seduce each other with food, their motivations for being in that kitchen together are nothing like Paige and Philip's in similar scenes. It's like both of them, imo, *want* to be able to just have an innocent scene, but both are committed to an agenda that doesn't go away when they forget about it for a second.

The J's actually recently said something about how E gets the reputation for being the bigger killer while Philip's got a higher body count. I always feel the same way about people assuming that E does so much more honeytrapping than P when this season's really hammering on P as sex worker. Elizabeth maybe has more partners because of one night stands, but does that really matter?

Still, I have seen theories that E is purposefully being written as colder this season because she's swinging back to that "all for the Motherland!" mentality. But it's not necessarily working completely. Like someone mentioned--was it here?--that after she kills the Northrup guy she's frantically scrubbing the tub almost like Lady MacBeth.

Matthew and Henry

[shapinglight]

I only just got to watch the episode today. It was as always brilliant. The acting in this show is just stunningly good, and that's true of all the cast but especially of the two leads.

I love Philip and Elizabeth so much (despite the fact that they're actually awful people, who've murdered a lot of innocent people). It makes me sad to think that the show will most likely end with both of them dead or in prison.

I've not a lot to add to all the great comments that have already been made, except that I did wonder, during the Philip/Stan conversation about Matthew, whether what Stan said gave Philip any food for thought. I think Philip still thinks of Henry as a child and that he knows all about him, but as we've seen, that isn't true.

Unless I'm wrong in thinking that only Paige is aware of Henry's crush on Sandra Beamon?

Re: Matthew and Henry

[selenak]

No, going by what we know only Paige knows about Henry's crush, Philip (and Elizabeth, for that matter) seem to consider him still in the "ew, girls" stage of childhood.

Mind you, the fact Henry last season broke into another house (after properly scouting it out first) to play a video game should have given them pause to consider that Henry now starts to be able to pull such stunts and have secrets etc., but I guess the instant remorse when caught and Paige's religion being much more promiment distracted them...

Also: Stan missed out three entire years of Matthew's life. Philip so far has never been separated from Henry. So there's another reaason why he probably thinks the cases don't compare.

random thought about Elizabeth's personas

[theplatonicnonyeah]

It's funny how sometimes I find myself liking a character's persona more than the "real" person, ie Elizabeth or Philip.

Last season I really loved that innocent woman Elizabeth played as she was wooing the military guy for information about Larrick. And this time around I'm warming up to Michelle quite a lot. Could it be because both those imaginary people seem to portray sides that Elizabeth wants to hide? That these show her more human side?

Anyone else experiencing similar feelings?

Re: random thought about Elizabeth's personas

[saraqael]

I think that both Elizabeth and Philip drawn on aspects of their own personalities when they create their undercover personas. The less acting and pretending they have to do, the easier it is for them to maintain these facades. So far as Elizabeth is concerned, I don't know if she necessarily wants to hide these aspects of herself from Philip/her kids. To me it's more like she's just showing different sides of her personality to them. She can be the caring but efficient mom to her kids. What she allows herself to express to Philip is more fraught and problematic because of the nature of their marriage. It's probably easier for Elizabeth to reveal how vulnerable being violated made her feel to a stranger than to Philip. She can be honest with that person but then walk away and never see them again.

Another thing about Philip's flashback

[sistermagpie]

This might be just so obvious that everybody else noticed it, but it just hit me. In the flashback it starts out with Philip walking up the room and knocking and the woman's waiting in there, there's the woman he's on top of, and the old woman in the chair looking up at him and the man.

And I realized that there's a subtle visual story where he starts out as the client and becomes the prostitute. Because in the last scene with the man it's Philip who's waiting in the room in the chair, already undressed, and the man who's taking off his clothes.

My first thought was on a practical level thinking hey, you know, this may just be an actual brothel where the Centre sent Philip as a client claiming he had whatever kinks or selecting certain women for him. The people working there probably wouldn't be told that this was a super secret program. And then maybe the last night was maybe the Centre arranging for Philip to be the prostitute there to service an actual client who liked young men.

Then I realized that the really important thing was that switch efficiently showing him going from client to sex worker, so at the end he's the professional on the other side of the door.

Nice job, show!

Re: Another thing about Philip's flashback

[selenak]

Oh wow. No, I hadn't noticed, either, but YES. It's just about the bleakest and brilliantly, viciously efficient "training montage" which it occurs to me were quite popular in 80s movies first, and where the young hero or heroine usually goes from beginner to pro (complete with song in the background, whereas here you only here Mischa breathing) in five minutes, too.

re: actual brothel, or probably brothels (otherwise Philip haivng a kink for older woman one week and for young ones the next would be noticed), that makes the most sense. I'm also reminded of the review of the first two seasons by a rl sex worker who said that the way Elizabeth handled the mark who enjoyed beating her up was exactly the way it would be handled by a pro, the praising his performance (thereby implying it's over) and then, when that doesn't work, pretending to be very scared etc.). So presumably in addition to the sex and learning how to divorce sex from the need to feel actual attraction, the young agents would pick up a few tips of what to do if the situation goes completely out of hand.

(Though then again, P & E have martial arts training. Presumably if Elizabeth HAD been running Yousaf instead of Annalise, and he had for whatever reason tried to strangle her, she'd have switched personas and fought him off.)