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theamericansThis is the discussion post for "A Little Night Music" and "The Deal" (episodes 2.04 and 2.05) in the group rewatch of seasons one and two. When you rewatched the episodes, was there anything you noticed that you didn't notice the first time (and any subsequent times) you saw them? What things about them did you perhaps view differently after having seen the later episodes?
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
A Little Night Music thoughts
Date: 2014-12-05 09:58 pm (UTC)Seeing this episode so soon after the last one there does seem a big change in how concerned P&E are about Paige going off on her own. I guess some time has passed in the show.
So did Claudia not know about Jared and Kate at all?
Philip may be Stan's friend but it doesn't stop him breaking his promise about not telling Elizabeth his secrets.
I also wonder what Martha knows about Nina. Not about the affair presumably but if she told Philip that Stan had a female agent he was trying hard to get exfiltrated he might make a leap. I don't know what he'd do with the information though.
So apparently Mikhail Suslov who was seen as the successor to Brezhnev died in January 1982, which would explain why Arkady's thinking about the succession now.
I am very impressed by Philip's ability to memorise phone numbers from across a corridor. If he lives into the present day he could make a lot of money stealing people's PIN numbers.
So Philip misses half the conversation about church and Elizabeth tells him Paige said *she* had a messed up family, which isn't actually true.
I'd like to see Elizabeth playing more characters in s3, she's good at it
Martha talks to her mother but I find it weird that she doesn't seem to have friends
When Philip says you don't want to say grace when you're hungry, it sounds to me like he's speaking from experience
I think the 'abduct an innocent scientist' mission is the most morally questionable one they've been given yet? They've killed innocent people before but killing them wasn't the purpose of those missions. When Philip's stalking Anton at the university he looks kind of sad about it.
Re: A Little Night Music thoughts
Date: 2014-12-06 05:47 am (UTC)You know, I would guess that if he is drawing on experience it's experience of hunger rather than prayer!
Yeah, I think this whole scientist mission is a great one to drop on them. It's just so close to Philip--almost the way Elizabeth couldn't help but see herself in some things about Lucia. This mission's very explicitly connected with Philip having to shut down any emotions he might feel about it.
I don't know if she knows about them here--she definitely doesn't know what went down with the Connors. But she knows by the end of the season.
Re: A Little Night Music thoughts
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From:Jared and Kate and Claudia
Date: 2014-12-08 02:06 pm (UTC)I think that's got to be right. She wouldn't have had any reason to sic Philip and Elizabeth on their killer otherwise.
It's fascinating what that says about how Directorate S is run, if you think about it.
-J
Re: Jared and Kate and Claudia
From:Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-06 05:42 am (UTC)The show's good at coming up with missions that fit each of them. Like of course Philip has to deal with the guy getting banished from his family. Elizabeth deals with the girl who lets the mission down by letting family ties take priority.
Nice note that Stan got a medal for his white supremacist group but never picked it up. He's felt tarnished for a while, I think. (Even if he was probably never one for medals.)
Elizabeth is still the one who doesn't want to work with Grannie. Claudia likes her more, reaches out to her more personally; Philip's the one she's never liked and has arguably treated worse in a more personal way, but he puts it aside.
Also more interesting wrinkles in how the spies react to authority and their jobs. Oleg, like Philip, tends to speak up about his own opinions about strategy--as the Line N head he thinks his opinion should carry more weight since he's the expert. Yet he's still totally different in his pov from Philip. And of course Oleg is defined by being connected while Philip is always very isolated.
Arkady, meanwhile, uses the rules to keep Oleg from info he doesn't much want to share anyway. Oleg and Gaad also make a nice compare/contrast with his "layering."
Elizabeth whole choice of music is so brilliant, weaving in the emotions of the various pieces etc., knowing how to ask for the very type of music Brad's got through emotion.
Funny I never thought of this Philip/Stan scene before being specifically about Stan talking about killing to Philip, how even a good kill, one you're trained for, is hard. I'm honestly not sure what all Philip is thinking about it. His question to Stan is whether he's done it before. Does he know anything about Vlad? Is he trying to get inside Stan's head more? Is he asking for personal reasons, seeing how much Stan would understand about him? It's just cool that he asks him that and then later in the season he'll be focusing on just how many people he's killed himself. I don't think this idea came entirely from Stan, but he voiced it.
You can see how this reads to Stan, though, when he wants to be envious of Philip.
On one hand, Philip lies to Stan telling him he won't tell Elizabeth (though it seems like both of them already consider Stan's affair to be a given), but otoh it's interesting that Stan's in a men sharing secrets world while Philip automatically shares with Elizabeth.
Philip's dodge on the "have you ever?" is I think a lot like Elizabeth's in that he doesn't seem, like, thrown for a moment, as if it really makes him question himself. Only where Elizabeth's attitude is "your life is not my life" Philip seems just completely focused on how Philip should answer Stan.
Although I think Philip is actually speaking honestly (and almost with some relief) about marriage and the 'day to day' stuff getting in the way of the love (his day to day stuff is intense!). So it's almost fitting that it's the moment he gets totally wrong about Stan, who almost accidentally assures him that it's worse when you just drift apart. He's almost genuinely surprised at Stan's description of that, like the one thing he thinks he knows about is marriage and it turns out marriages are just as varied as people.
Also, Philip gets cut off again when he was maybe expressing himself. Later, talking to Charles, he'll also say something honest and be told he's wrong. And then he's cut off again in the finale with his childhood story.
Wow, Stan's speech about Nina is really on the mark for Philip. No matter what the day to day stuff, Elizabeth understands what he does and sees him in a way nobody else does.
At the same time--this stuff he's saying just bears no resemblance to his affair with Nina to me. He shouldn't be that sure about how she sees him.
Philip's "Why not?" is the first time he sounds like a spy doing some fishing from Stan. It's kind of chilling. If Philip knows he's having an affair with a KGB officer, this would be a very profitable thing to talk about for him.
I love how this show let's the spies fool the viewers. Like many people just couldn't believe that Elizabeth wasn't running out on Brad here as herself instead of her character in the hotel. They don't feel the need to have her wink at us all the time so we know where the boundaries are. But everything she's saying here is laying the foundations for her story later.
So here's the thing I was thinking about Elizabeth's character here. We've talked about how she's in general more coherent--she owns her past. She doesn't go in for as many flourishes in her characters and draws on her own life for emotional truth, like a method actor. In some ways this just fits her character. She prefers truth always where she can get it.
And the character she's playing here is also different from Philip's in that it's being more proactive. Philip, even in character, seems to mostly be watching the other person for how to adjust his behavior. Where as Elizabeth here is having to play much more of a one woman show for Brad since it's all about her selling the character's story, not selling the character. The moment where she pulls away from Brad has to come from her character; it's not a reaction to him doing something different.
But when I see something like the monologue about the rape it makes me also think about the whole relationship to the Centre. Like the fact that Elizabeth is taking the details of her rape and using it for her job. On one hand, you can see why this could be empowering so that part's important.
But it's still, in a way, Elizabeth offering up this intimate part of herself to the Centre (who were the original perpetrators of the crime!). She's never told anyone about it before, and maybe the job actually gives her an excuse to do it in a way that's safe because it's professional. But that itself fits the dynamic: if she takes this and makes it part of the mission it makes her stronger. Anything given to the cause becomes empowering. She gives it away to make herself stronger.
Where as Philip, both in character and as "himself" is I think always guarding himself. The few times he says something true while being in character it's I think still very carefully done. It's not just that in this ep Elizabeth's performance w/Brad is more emotional and intimate than Philip's with Martha, it's that it's almost hard to imagine it otherwise.
Basically it's just an interesting reflection. For Elizabeth diving in, giving herself fully, is the way she does things. Her instinct when it comes to the Centre/the cause is to give as much as she can. Philip's instinct, for all that Elizabeth accuses him of letting his guard down at one point, is to really never let his guard down. Where Elizabeth's character here is built around some important way she's like her (as I think most of her characters stay pretty close to her own energy--except Jennifer, who's made to match Clark so has more little flourishes like Clark himself does), Clark's characters are almost all made up of details that aren't Philip. It's like he works from the outside in and she works from the inside out. Clark does add up to a complex personality that makes sense, but we know him through these little details.
And that also reflects how Philip seems to guard himself against the Centre as well, like it's yet another threat. He's so guarded it's unclear, frankly, exactly what he's guarding at times because we don't know what's underneath there. If Philip had been attacked like Elizabeth, I can't imagine him baring it for the job.
In fact in the pilot he suggests Elizabeth should have told him about it, presumably because he would have wanted to assure her it was okay or whatever, yet he himself has really never, that we've seen, shared something that made him vulnerable or asked for reassurance about it. Maybe he was going there with his story about the milk--he did like 3 double takes before even starting to speak. But he cut himself off and didn't go back to it.
I think one of the reasons I love him as a character so much is he seems like he spends so much time sending out signals that there's nothing he's hiding they don't notice how little they know about him, really.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-06 09:08 am (UTC)Yes, that was something that really sank in only on this rewatch for me as well. Very important to their relationship, if you think about it.
Philip's dodge on the "have you ever?" is I think a lot like Elizabeth's in that he doesn't seem, like, thrown for a moment, as if it really makes him question himself. Only where Elizabeth's attitude is "your life is not my life" Philip seems just completely focused on how Philip should answer Stan.
Yes, I think this is one of the few times where you can see him wonder how his persona should answer this, instead of having a reaction immediately ready. (The other time that comes to mind is when Martha's parents ask Clark about his religion.) As to what a real answer to the question would be, leaving aside that sexual fidelity is impossible in Philip's job, I think it isn't even a question for him because he sees his "it's always been you" to Elizabeth in s1 as the emotional truth, i.e. he loves her and has loved only her for many years, therefore he doesn't cheat.
At the same time--this stuff he's saying just bears no resemblance to his affair with Nina to me. He shouldn't be that sure about how she sees him.
Oh indeed. I mean, I can see why he thinks so. Only very recently, Nina has given him the speech of how she was taught to fear and hate Americans and then he came. She tells him she's proud of him, and unlike Sandra, who can't say this for various reasons right now, Nina knows details about Stan's work. For someone who is in increasing moral quagmire, this is all very alluring. He wants to believe he's that man Nina apparantly sees in him, loves and admires, and therefore she has to see the truth.
But even leaving aside the audience knows Nina is at this point running him as an asset: that he's stopped learning Russian and can't process an Anna Karenina reference is fairly typical for the way he's not seeing Nina for who she is, in her own context, as much as who he wants her to be. So how could she see him? And note that he doesn't talk to either Sandra or Nina about how killing someone has affected him. He's talking to Philip about it.
Philip's "Why not?" is the first time he sounds like a spy doing some fishing from Stan. It's kind of chilling. If Philip knows he's having an affair with a KGB officer, this would be a very profitable thing to talk about for him.
I don't think Philip knows this (they haven't had a handler since Claudia, Kate hasn't contacted him yet, and I doubt the Centre would let him now via radio), but I also agree he's definitely fishing here. Because whoever Stan has the affair with, it's blackmail material on a high level intelligence officer. (Just as Emmet and Leanne were blackmailing Andrew Larrick with his homosexuality.) Not that Philip, right then and there, has concrete plans to blackmail Stan, but he's a spy through and through and this is useful leverage either for himself or for the KGB at some future point. However friendly he feels about Stan, it's not enough to counterweigh that assessment.
ETA: But it's still, in a way, Elizabeth offering up this intimate part of herself to the Centre (who were the original perpetrators of the crime!).
Generally I agree, but in this specific instance I have to point out that Elizabeth doesn't do this for the Centre, which hasn't sanctioned this particular mission and in fact knows nothing about it. (Yet.) Claudia instigated it, Elizabeth and Philip agreed to do it, but at this point, they're in business for themselves (to find out who killed the Connors, since the Centre as far as they know dropped it), not for the KGB.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
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Date: 2014-12-06 11:03 pm (UTC)I thought it was the natural question to ask, from a 'civilian' guy who knows nothing.
There's an interesting parallel here. Besides them both being trained to kill, they both killed the person closest to their friend/source (Stan killed Vlad and Philip killed Amador), and they had to continue and pretend as if it wasn't them. Except Philip did a much better job.
So Stan's confiding he killed a guy, when it's actually another guy that matters more to Philip. And if only Stan knew the truth.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
From:Re: Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-08 02:21 pm (UTC)I don't see how he could know about Vlad, to be honest--the Rezidentura and the Center are so "need to know basis" when it comes to the illegals (probably as a control mechanism, but also from a practical purpose--to avoid having contact with them that isn't absolutely necessary).
Philip, even in character, seems to mostly be watching the other person for how to adjust his behavior. Where as Elizabeth here is having to play much more of a one woman show for Brad since it's all about her selling the character's story, not selling the character. The moment where she pulls away from Brad has to come from her character; it's not a reaction to him doing something different.
This is great!!!
Where as Philip, both in character and as "himself" is I think always guarding himself. The few times he says something true while being in character it's I think still very carefully done.
Absolutely. They clearly have the same training, so there are always going to be similarities, but they apply that training in completely different ways.
I think one of the reasons I love him as a character so much is he seems like he spends so much time sending out signals that there's nothing he's hiding they don't notice how little they know about him, really.
*nodding* I participated in a linguistics study once where I was put in dyads with different people and was asked to have conversations with them. The woman who was doing the study told me afterward that after listening to the recordings of the conversations, she assumed I would be one of the ones who talked most, but after she did the math, in reality I was the one who talked by far the least. She then went on to tell me that this was because of the way I used the trappings of conversation to get other people talking, so it made it feel to them (and initially to her) that we were talking equally or even that I was talking more. I always think of that (and just generally that sort of thing) when it comes to Philip. He makes his conversation partner feel like he's giving of himself, and he does it so well that they don't notice it's not true. Even Elizabeth doesn't notice unless she's thinking about it.
-J
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch A Little Night Music
From:A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-06 08:01 am (UTC)Note that Philip's reaction to the speech is utterly detached. He gives an professional and accurate assessment (Anton is never going to volunteer to work for Mother Russia, it'll have to be enforced repatriation). Because Philip enjoys his life in the US and thought about defecting in the pilot, I've seen some reviewers conclude he's pro-American in the political sense, and scenes like this are why I really, really don't think so. He's starting to have his doubts re: whether all the killings as part of the work have a point, but he also has zero sympathies with defectors working for the opposition like Anton. More on Philip and Anton in the comments to the next episode.
While I remembered Stan's and Philip's conversation being about Stan's affair etc., I had forgotten it actually starts with Stan talking about how it affected him to kill the Vietnam vet turned wannabe shooter. About what it's like to kill in general. Given that Stan gets congratulations ("the bastard had it coming") from everyone at the work place, it's obvious one of the appeals of "civilian" Philip as a friend is that he can show that he doesn't triumphant at all and that in fact it's burdening him to have taken a life. (Obvious irony that Philip understands even better how Stan feels than Stan can now.) Conversely, it's probably also one of the appeals of Stan to Philip.
(Note: speaking of ironies, though. In the same conversation, Stan insists that he's hardly talking to Sandra about anything because he's "shielding" her from this stuff, he wants it separate. Which, considering he's at the same time telling it to Philip - who was far as he knows is a civilian just like Sandra - plays again into Stan's gendered reactions to men and women that we've talked about before.)
Claudia returns in this episode. The first time around, this was a great and pleasant surprise because after I had marathoned the first season I was told she wouldn't be on the show anymore in the second. Rewatching, I was struck that for all of Elizabeth's lingering hostility, she actually has gotten better at reading Claudia, correctly deducing that something beyond the deaths of Emmet and Leanne is going on with her. (And note Elizabeth doesn't assume this "something" is Claudia wanting to set her and Philip up, which she would have assumed last season.) Knowing the entire season, of course, Claudia feels guilty because she has to assume that her own major protocol breach in confiding her true identity to someone else could have gotten Emmet and Leanne killed. Incidentally, this brings me to "who knew what when?" again: since the Centre is explicitly dropping the investigations re: who killed the Connors, it's evident they knew the truth at this point. (Otherwise it really would have made no sense to leave such a lingering threat to the other illegals uninvestigated.) But Claudia doesn't know, which makes me wonder about her own standing with Moscow right then. They probably have no idea she told someone the truth, but they must know something lethal happened to Patterson (who'd been ordered to be left alone), and that since Elizabeth was out for the count at that point Claudia was the most likely candidate. And we know from Claudia's conversation with Arkady in the s1 finale that she did repeatedly question their orders for P & E to meet with the Colonel. So there might be some question mark about Claudia's general reliability there.
If you compare Philip's and Elizabeth's conversation re: Brad Mullen here with their first season interactions, it's evident how much the bond between them has grown. Philip is aware that Elizabeth might find a solo mission (which is the difference, not the honey trap scenario - she played the part together with Leanne in the season opener, after all, but she wasn't on her own then and had backup) bothersome but leaves the judgment call on that one to her, offering but not insisting on changing tasks. Elizabeth, for her part, doesn't react in defensive denial but thanks him, and goes through with the mission.
Speaking of which: Brad Mullen is one of the most sympathetic "targets" , and this is also the first (of several) times in s2 where we see Elizabeth use an emotional truth from her own life as part of her cover. This is also the very first time she talks about being raped (Philip found out via Timochev's words), and I think she probably can only in the safety of a fake identity - Brad is not someone she'll have to deal with for the rest of her life. Otoh her sense of self is secure enough to use this very personal event as part of a fake persona, which is probably why she isn't aware that Philip's need to keep his personas separate from his "real" self is so big.
Arkady spends this and the next episode increasingly irritated with Oleg, who continues not to be factually wrong but using the wrong method to get along in the work place. (Saying he didn't want to undermine Arkady after having called home to get higher clearance which is of course undermining being a case in point.) Arkady's pointed story about Andropov is a neat period touch; I wonder, btw, how many viewers remember Andropov used to be the head of the KGB before becoming General Secretary?
Re: A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-06 03:40 pm (UTC)Re: A Little Night Music
From:Re: A Little Night Music
From:Re: A Little Night Music
From:Claudia and Moscow
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From:Anton Baklanov
Date: 2014-12-08 02:26 pm (UTC)He's a great character, but he's also clearly played by a tremendous actor. That character--and especially that last scene in "The Deal"--would have come across so differently in the hands of someone with less skill.
-J
Re: Anton Baklanov
From:The Deal
Date: 2014-12-06 08:42 am (UTC)The scenes between Philip and Yossi the Mossad agent lose nothing of their intensity when you know how they play out. It's obvious they try to get into each other's heads from the get go - Philip with the taunts about shekels etc. and Yossi with a mixture of flattery ("I'm bronze, not platinum like you") and digs (communinism being much better practiced in Israel), two professionals playing mind games, but Philip drops it early on, settling for just guarding his prisoner, and Yossi gets better and better at it, crowning it with the last dig when he's already on his way back to freedom - "is your wife your wife, is your name your name, are your children your children?" (The last question, btw, is also foreshadowing, since the season finale will pose it again in a different way - are Paige and Henry Philip's children, or do they belong to the state?) He also gets results; not a chance to escape, but after a night of being worked on, Philip comes up with a longing "I like the cold". Incidentally, I don't think he was lying earlier about not remembering the icicles; I think he keeps Mischa's memories buried as deeply as he can normally, but Yossi eventually gets him to access them again, and in the final, beautiful scene with Elizabeth he allows himself to feel it and to be Philip Jennings and Mischa both, which he can only with her because she's sharing this double Russian-American existence.
Then there's the long sequence, only briefly interrupted, of Anton pleading with Philip. This is so intense that it's painful and awkward and you want it to stop, but the show lets it continue, which is a brave and good storytelling choice. As with Viola, we get presented with the human consequences of P & E's job here, what they do to an individual person. Even in the age of the tv antihero, most shows if they do a similar scenario either let the person pleading for their lives do so briefly (cut to gun shot) or be a villain themselves, and play the pleading as comic relief like grovelling. But Anton isn't killed, he's not a villain, and his desperate pleading does not conveniently end early. Here I think Philip (as opposed to the earlier synagoge scene in the previous episode) is a bit affected, but he shuts it down and gets rid of it once he's back home. It doesn't have the weight on him the killing increasingly does.
During first watching, I didn't know whether Oleg was acting on his own initiative with Stan or whether he had Arkady's ok for this. In retrospective, we know he did, but the episode withhelds the relevant scene in order to spring the surprise on both Stan and the viewer. It's a pity, because this is a turning point for Arkady and Oleg which I would have liked to see. Oleg saying "I happen to be very skilled at counter surveillance" apparantly did make Arkady taking him up on this (the alternative, that Oleg did do this on his own and only cleared it with Arkady post facto, would have worsened their relationship, and it does get better from this point onwards, so I don't think so), and Oleg proceeds with an irrevocable step on the operation Let's Turn Stan.
Speaking of Arkady: not only does he have one of his most memorable snarky lines in this episode ("is Ronald Reagan personally scaling our wall in his cowboy hat?"), but he also, as in the s1 finale, demonstrates his commitment to keeping his illegals safe. Then and now, he proves the "Arkady thinks like a bureaucrat" outburst a lie; painting the cars and hitting on the idea to suggest the refuseniks as an exchange is pretty outside the box and creative.
Re: The Deal
Date: 2014-12-06 08:10 pm (UTC)What I find really interesting about Jennifer is that she must have been created to fit Clark. Presumably Elizabeth and Philip had to work something out together, with Philip being the one with info on Clark and on Martha and therefore on who Clark sister would have to be. I imagine they might even have practiced to sound similar.
I think, btw, that this is probably the way they do a lot of characters in general. Like I think Philip and Elizabeth would have discussed the character of Ted who comes up later in terms of how best to get to that guy, just as they discussed multiple ways to get to Brad and decided that Elizabeth's pose here was the best one. But with Jennifer, Elizabeth would be coming in as support to a character who's already fully formed so she'd need to play to someone else's script in some ways, which she does very well. But still Jennifer's rather different from the characters we see her come up with herself, which is where I think you can see how she's been created to match a character whose primary "author" was Philip. If Elizabeth had a character who needed a brother, Philip likewise wouldn't come in as a Clark. He'd have to modulate to Elizabeth's rhythms, like Elizabeth does to him here.
Yes, and it's not the sex itself that makes her uncomfortable. When Martha first just makes reference to them having sex she's fine. It's when Martha specifically talks about how he is in bed and says "I don't know where he gets it" or whatever. Martha herself is putting it in terms of this aspect being hidden, significant and personal to Clark, which Elizabeth reads as being hidden, significant and personal to Philip. Where as when Martha first started talking I think Elizabeth just chalked the praise up to the equivalent of her "Hasn't a girl ever stuck her finger in your ass before?" kind of thing from the pilot.
Yeah, I think it's one of those interesting grey areas about what "remembering" means. If asked Philip would probably have been able to say with confidence that there are icicles in winter in Siberia. But that's different than connecting to an actual memory of them. He's absolutely cut off from his actual childhood in this scene and literally not remembering. In order to truly remember he has to sort of mentally go to the place in his mind where they are and unlock the box with the key, which he seems to be doing when they're sitting in silence. (He's jiggling the key in the lock then at least.) When he comes home he's got an actual memory.
I agree about Oleg--I think he was totally working with Arkady when he met with Stan, and that this probably made him respect Arkady more as well. He's so not a bureaucrat. It's nice to think of this, too, in context of the way he describes Andropov coming from nothing. The class difference between him and Oleg is really fascinating--another advantage to having multiple characters represent the USSR.
Re: The Deal
From:Re: The Deal
Date: 2014-12-08 02:30 pm (UTC)YES. This is EXACTLY what I said upon first airing. :)
-J
Sistermagpie rewatch The Deal
Date: 2014-12-06 07:52 pm (UTC)I'd love to have been watching them film Kate's first scene to see how Wrenn Schmidt was directed.
I do get the feeling now that maybe Kate was unexpectedly promoted because she was in Washington handling Jared.
It's so interesting the way there's this whole convo going on about Clark when Clark has never been so absent from an ep--because Philip is being Philip (or Mischa) the whole time. Clark seems to not even exist right now.
Plus it's like the whole Martha/Jennifer convo is a red herring from their pov. Elizabeth thinks she's getting some insight into Philip (and as Selenak mentioned, she's just shown in the last ep that the way she works of course she'd think that) when really what she's getting is insight into MARTHA. Because Clark is just a reflection of Martha.
Yossi says "I'm talking like I have a fever" presumably to make Philip think Yossi's less in control than he is.
Interesting cut back to Elizabeth and Martha after "I don't hide who I am" because Elizabeth comes to think Philip's hiding who he is from her.
Martha says a wife should mean more to Clark than some dumb job. Philip's wife is more important to him--but Clark's isn't.
Seriously, I don't get how people don't see a connection between what Martha says here and what Philip does in BTRD.
Not that there isn't anything 'real' about Philip in Clark, just not in the direct way Elizabeth imagines here.
Arkady gives this whole speech about Jews dying for their tribe to lead up to basically standing with his tribe. Ideas vs. tribe being, of course, a huge central issue of the show. Could Paige ever really be part of the Russian tribe?
Elizabeth's line about being "too old" to learn how to feel is so poignant, I think because it seems like she's trying to pass herself off as younger with this guy. Like not super young, but younger than she is. And since we know she's also talking about her own trauma, the "too old" fear seems real--if not very intense in this moment because she and Philip are doing okay. Maybe she's thinking here about feelings of jealousy she has after speaking with Martha, like she's too old to be feeling these things now.
Nina does a great job selling Oleg as the loose canon at the Rezidentura. Go Arkady (and her) for letting Oleg's more difficult qualities work for them. I wonder if Oleg is totally in on that part of it. I mean, whether his snotty kid with connections aspect is brought up to Stan. Because his own dealings with Stan make him seem more like just a schemer and opportunist. I can't remember if he later ever mentions connections back home.
I love that the "I like the cold" scene seems to come after they've been quiet for a while. Yossi planted the scenes and Philip's been brooding over them in silence.
I seriously wonder why Philip even says the cold line. It's so OOC. I wonder if he didn't mean for it to come out in the tone that it did. Because strictly speaking, the words could just be a dismissal of Yossi's celebration of milder climates.
Again, love the whole juxtapositions throughout the show of what ties people to things. Earlier we had tribe vs. ideas. But Yossi keeps hitting on homeland (perfect, being Israeli. Even Baklanov seems more tied to the Israelis than the US in this ep.) And this is exactly the aspect of himself that Philip has brutally repressed to be Philip Jennings.
It's truly amazing how Philip spends so much of this ep resisting speech when people are trying to drag it out of him--and we've already seen him resist talking under torture as well. The one thing he does speak up about to both Yossi and Baklanov is that they won't be killed. He also speaks up to insist Baklanov won't be mistreated.
Philip is also interestingly right about Baklanov being "adaptable." I think he believes that (and needs to, perhaps, as part of telling himself this isn't so bad).
Also interesting the way Baklanov's begging not to be spent back to a place he's spent his life trying to escape comes after a suggestion of homesickness from Philip. Of course Philip would be just as upset to be sent home to Russia without his family, but I love how it hits on the many different ways different people feel about their homeland.
I love all the references in this ep to whoever Philip "once was" as opposed to what he is now, which is nobody. Or person unknown.
I really wonder if there was some rearranging of this ep in editing. We have that scene of Elizabeth and Brad in daylight that is either a flashback or taking place during a night that hasn't yet ended, then she's at home at night with Paige when it's early enough she could be doing laundry.
Nice cut from the line about the Soviet's view of human rights to Baklanov in chains. Though this story really isn't about Soviet human rights abuses but intelligence.
If occurs to me now, given what I said above, that Philip's icicle line works not only as the ultimate, safe, result of Yossi's prodding, and Philip tapping into his actual self/past, but a happy memory of home that counteracts Baklanov's view of it.
Also, to reference one of the comments above, here again is Philip saying something ("Were there icicles in Smolensk in the winter?"), someone else calling him on it ("Yes....What?") and him saying "I don't know." Yossi kind of unnerves him by jumping in with his own interpretation of his "I like the cold" line.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch The Deal
Date: 2014-12-07 06:38 am (UTC)Yes, I think Elizabeth's persona with Brad is supposed to be in her early 30s at most - probably more like late 20s, because the backstory she tells him about being an army brat and then staying in a town after her father's death works better if there aren't two decades at least between adolescence and the present - whereas Elizabeth is in her 40s. But she does seem to be method acting with the "too old" line, i.e. using something real, so I agree with you, she's probably talking both about the belated processing of her rape and newly awakened feelings of jealousy which she never had before and which she probably thinks of as non-adult.
Nina does a great job selling Oleg as the loose canon at the Rezidentura. Go Arkady (and her) for letting Oleg's more difficult qualities work for them. I wonder if Oleg is totally in on that part of it. I mean, whether his snotty kid with connections aspect is brought up to Stan. Because his own dealings with Stan make him seem more like just a schemer and opportunist. I can't remember if he later ever mentions connections back home.
I don't think he does, so it's definitely Nina and Arkady who incorporate that in the way Nina introduces the idea of Oleg to Stan. BTW, it occurs to me that allowing Oleg to play the heavy in Operation Turning Stan (and letting Nina establish that Oleg is arguing with Arkady and is going against orders) also gives Arkady plausible deniability if they have misjudged Stan and Stan reacts to this initial approach by reporting it to his superiors. The Rezident being caught trying to blackmail an FBI agent (even if that FBI agent has earlier blackmailed one of the Rezident's employees) could cause diplomatic kerfuffles at the very least. But one loose canon/snotty kid from the nomenclatura? Eh. Not Arkady's fault.
I wonder if he didn't mean for it to come out in the tone that it did. Because strictly speaking, the words could just be a dismissal of Yossi's celebration of milder climates.
I was going to write that it's a bit like him telling Martha, as Clark, about Clark's first wife and "we didn't know how to be married", but on second thought, no, because rare as him giving Clark something true of himself was, it wasn't spontanous. Whereas I think this line actually is, at least in the way it comes out. I like your idea that he may have simply meant to shoot Yossi's praise of warmer climates down to get Yossi to shut up with a flippant "I like the cold", but because he's been brooding for hours in the quiet after Yossi triggered something in him, the sentence comes out with what he's actually feeling at this moment and hasn't allowed himself to feel for years, which is why the sentence is sounding so wondering and longing.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch The Deal
Date: 2014-12-08 02:35 pm (UTC)AHAHAHA, we're totally going to be doing this from now on, aren't we? The one I wanted to have been a fly on the wall for was the drunken Elizabeth-and-Martha scene. I would love to know how many different ways the director had them play some of those lines before ultimately settling on that series of takes.
I really wonder if there was some rearranging of this ep in editing. We have that scene of Elizabeth and Brad in daylight that is either a flashback or taking place during a night that hasn't yet ended, then she's at home at night with Paige when it's early enough she could be doing laundry.
Funny that this occurred to you too! I really do think this must have been the ending (if not the final scene) of A Little Night Music, but they took it out to put into this episode, for whatever reason (episode length?).
-J
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From:A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-06 11:13 pm (UTC)* Philip is going through quite a few disguises while going after Baklanov. I can see why he would, but he hasn't done that before, I think.
* Elizabeth says she was with a bunch of big, handsome guys. I somehow get the impression of young men, and Larrick doesn't fit that description.
* On first watch I thought Oleg was threatening Nina. It's obvious now he wasn't. I really see the Oleg-Nina relationship differently on rewatch.
Re: A Little Night Music
Date: 2014-12-07 07:09 am (UTC)Good catch. If Brad had actually known Larrick (as opposed to being able to get his file), he might have wondered. Then again, Elizabeth needs to sell why she hung out with this crowd to begin with, and "big and handsome" is as good a reason as any.
no subject
Date: 2014-12-08 02:08 am (UTC)• The moment where Elizabeth comes in and turns off the country music feels so illustrative of where Philip and Elizabeth are in their relationship in the second season. Philip says "I was listening to that." and Elizabeth responds "I know." in a way that sounds both playful and exasperated. She isn't afraid of the parts of him that are drawn to the U.S. anymore, but she does still want to control them, in her own way.
• The conversation with Claudia really makes clear in retrospect that by this point the Center knows exactly how Emmett and Leanne died. They've already pulled the surveillance of the kids, they're refusing to do the investigation--and of course we now know why.
• I remember back when this first aired that we talked about the way Philip tried to get Elizabeth to let him take on Brad Mullins so she wouldn't have to have sex with him, but taking that conversation in the context of the season, it's clear that this is just the beginning of him trying to maneuver things so she doesn't have to have sex and her trying to maneuver things so he doesn't have to kill anyone.
• It's interesting to see that Stan already knows by the time of his conversation with Philip that his relationship with Nina is doomed. He's not even speculating about the chance of having something more with her when he's telling his friend about it--he knows from the very beginning.
• The whole Oleg/Nina thing in these episodes is puzzling to me--in fact, I'm not sure how to take Nina and Oleg's relationship, even now. It's clear that he's pretty much completely into her from day one, but I'm still not sure how she feels about him even now. Does she change her mind and come to like him eventually, or does she just figure she's in a better bargaining position if she sleeps with him? I'm never sure how to read Nina, basically. And that's fun, but it's also maddening.
• People point to Elizabeth's conversation with Martha in The Deal as the start of her jealousy, but you can see it already in A Little Night Music, at the moment where Philip talks about having a "lazy morning."
• It's interesting to think about how Elizabeth would have felt about playing a character who so clearly feels the burning need to talk through her rape. She thinks of herself as being strong when she doesn't have to think or talk about it--does that mean she would have regarded this character as weak?
• This line from Philip and Elizabeth's (wonderful, wonderful) scene talking about Paige's churchiness in the car at the end of A Little Night Music is just SO GREAT, in light of where they took things in the season: "You protect them from the big life-and-death dangers, and then something finds its way into your house!"
• We talked at the time The Deal aired about how out-of-place the Elizabeth-and-Brad scene looked, but I don't think it occurred to us then that the scene might actually have originally been part of A Little Night Music, but was edited out and moved to The Deal in post-production. It would have tied that episode more nicely into a bow, and it would have fit there better, too.
• I remember that a lot of people on Twitter assumed Elizabeth was genuinely losing it in her scene in the motel room with Brad, but I never thought that. That's not what Elizabeth losing it looks like--slamming someone's hand in the trunk again and again after he's long since been disabled is what Elizabeth losing it looks like.
• I wonder whether Kenny Rogers' The Gambler was the specific song in the script (i.e. if it was entirely writer Angelina Burnett's idea), or whether it was decided in consultation with the music guy.
• All right, a those of you who were telling me a few weeks back that it's possible to pretend you're drinking--I would love to hear your ideas about how the heck Elizabeth would have been able to avoid drinking in the scene with Martha!
-J
no subject
Date: 2014-12-08 03:57 am (UTC)That's funny--I always thought in the scene that his issue wasn't that she might have to have sex with the guy but that he knew the story she'd be telling him and was protective of her having to tell him she was raped and all that.
Me too. I feel like here she's probably not quite sure herself. Like I think he does eventually get to her, but at this point she seems to almost enjoy seeing him act in ways that make Arkady roll his eyes, but then he shocks her by showing he could be a threat. And maybe that interests her both because it's better for her if he likes her and because it makes her take him seriously, like he's not just an idiot with rich parents.
And interestingly, given the convo we were having elsewhere, it's one of the few times Philip says "I" instead of Clark. I think because in this case he does mean himself. He promised that he (Philip) will be with her all morning. Clark is looking forward to cuddling with his wife.
Interesting. Trying to imagine what it would be like from her pov, I guess she'd start from the position that this character has to tell about the rape because otherwise Brad won't get the files for her. So she has to come up with a reason why this person would tell Brad. And I'm not sure if she'd necessarily see it as weak. Vulnerable, yes, because she's asking for help. But maybe not weak in a way she'd find contemptible. Especially since she's getting Brad to steal files for her.
So basically, I think this character seems to fall in a place where Elizabeth is using qualities that she hides in herself...but it is a quality that she has under the right circumstances. So I think she can identify enough with the character in a way she can be her. I don't get the sense when she plays the part that she's as disconnected from her as she is from, say, Jennifer.
Yes, and they did say that that was something they did this season, just decide that they could move something into the next ep like it was one big story. But sometimes that can cause little problems like people being at a sunny beach in the middle of the night.
I would think the latter since rights would be involved. But the writer may have put in a few suggestions when she wrote it. I mean, you can't NOT sing to The Gambler.
Well, Martha's already a few sheets to the wind when Jennifer shows up, and she doesn't appear to really be watching how much Jennifer's drinking. Plus I imagine she might "refill" her glass a few times when it's not empty to give her the sense that she's needing a refill. Maybe even pour some of it into Martha's glass if she steps away. Or pour it down the sink.
(no subject)
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Date: 2014-12-08 06:35 am (UTC)I'd like to believe she does fall in love with him. The other option is really sad for her.
We talked at the time The Deal aired about how out-of-place the Elizabeth-and-Brad scene looked, but I don't think it occurred to us then that the scene might actually have originally been part of A Little Night Music, but was edited out and moved to The Deal in post-production. It would have tied that episode more nicely into a bow, and it would have fit there better, too.
That didn't occur to me. Kind of a shame if that's the case.
All right, a those of you who were telling me a few weeks back that it's possible to pretend you're drinking--I would love to hear your ideas about how the heck Elizabeth would have been able to avoid drinking in the scene with Martha!
I'm sure Martha drunk most of that first bottle. I think we only saw Elizabeth sip a bit. Besides, Elizabeth is used to much stronger stuff.
Nina and Oleg
From:Re: Nina and Oleg
From:The Deal
Date: 2014-12-08 06:31 am (UTC)It's hard for me to accept that Israeli deal, especially when Baklanov isn't interested and isn't asked. Though maybe that's how politics go.
I'm also wondering whether Baklanov knew his mistress was Mossad. Philip implies that he does, but Baklanov has never shown or said in any way that he's helping the Israelis.
Re: The Deal
Date: 2014-12-08 10:59 am (UTC)Re: The Deal
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From:no subject
Date: 2014-12-08 12:54 pm (UTC)So what are his feelings for Martha then?
I don’t think he does have any feelings for “Martha.” I think from the onset his feelings for “Martha” have been very clear. You’re absolutely true saying there was an element of escape for “Philip,” whereby he went to somebody that was sort of nurturing and nice and loving and caring, but I don’t think that they manifested themselves in specific with genuine feelings for her. I just think he found solace in a place like that with someone like that.
CA
no subject
Date: 2014-12-08 02:45 pm (UTC)-J
(no subject)
From:Jennifer & Martha
Date: 2014-12-08 03:03 pm (UTC)In RL, I'd think that was something Clark would hide from his side of the family too.
Also, that Martha also has a bit of a tic repeating words.
Re: Jennifer & Martha
Date: 2014-12-08 06:35 pm (UTC)Re: Jennifer & Martha
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