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theamericansThis is the discussion post for "Cardinal" and "The Walk In" (episodes 2.02 and 2.03) in the group rewatch of seasons one and two. When you rewatched the episodes, was there anything you noticed that you didn't notice the first time (and any subsequent times) you saw them? What things about them did you perhaps view differently after having seen the later episodes?
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 11:08 am (UTC)(BTW, I think this is also one of the reasons for the Vlad scene in the previouslies and Arkady playing the tape of Gaad and Stan talking callously about Vlad for Nina. I mean, yes, on a Watsonian level it's a psychological move to keep Nina's anger at the FBI alive, but Doylist wise, it's a good reminder to the audience of what happened.)
During first broadcast, I thought Oleg was obnoxious in this and the next episode; upon rewatch and knowledge of later events, he still comes across as spoilt and privileged, but not actively malicious. More like throwing his weight around as a way to impress people.
Elizabeth staying with the kids and Philip excusing Clark with a cancelled flight so he can go be with them both demonstrate how worried they are, and of course Philip is guit-tripping over the use of Henry in the brush-off. But they still go through with missions as well. Philip's encounter with Fred - poor Fred! - makes me want to go on a tanget about the way this show presents handler/asset relations, in their varieties. We only have one example of the Americans initializing such a relationship, with Stan and Nina, and she eventually turns it around so he's becoming her asset and she his handler, but without him realizing this, which makes it the equivalent of the Clark and Martha relationship. In both cases, its emotional core is a pretend relationship on the side of the Russian while the American believes it's true love and thinks he/she is doing the right thing. (Though obviously late in s2 the stakes change with Stan/Nina as soon as Oleg starts with the blackmail.) Ditto for Scott and Analise, where Analise thinks she's spying for Sweden and true love.
On the other end of the asset scale, there are those who not only know they're working for the KGB but actually know their handlers under their primary American identities, like Gregory, Charles and Vasily's asset from early s1. (And, though no one is aware yet, Jared with Kate.)
In between, we get the assets who know they're working for the KGB but know their handlers under other identities, like the gambler Sanderson (whom Elizabeth only met in her Morticia Addams getup) or Fred for whom Emmet only showed up as "Paul", just as Philip will keep wearing the disguise he has in this episode when meeting him again. Philip says this is for Fred's own protection, but realistically it must be so the asset, when caught, won't be able to identify the handler so easily. Now with the gambler I can see the point of trustworthiness but Fred through the season comes across as brave and reliable, so I wonder why Emmet never promoted him, so to speak, especially since he told him about having a son. Then again, maybe they didn't know each other long enough? (Gregory and Charles both are long-time associates since the 1960s.) Philip uses his deduction that Fred must know about Emmet's son - that this was the point of the Star Wars toys in his closet - to convince Fred not to kill him, and to establish he really knew "Paul", but afterwards is incredibly uncomfortable when Fred asks him whether the boy in the amusement park was his own son. Now you could say this is pointless since Fred is hardly going to believe that was just some random kid Philip grabbed plus evidently the knowledge about children helped to bond Fred to his previous handler. But Philip really, really doesn't want to cross that line again, and given what the season is building towards, it's foreshadowing.
Elizabeth's first meeting with Consuelo is still a great scene and heartbreaking in hindsight. Elizabeth is both utterly professional (despite being worried as hell about her family), calming Consuelo down, dealing with the congressman's aide and fixing the situation, and big sisterly with Consuelo. I don't think her "your revolution is beautiful" line is just a platitude; she believes it, and probably identifies a bit with this young agent already.
Lastly, I just adore the travel agency scene with P & E actually acting as travel agents when Stan brings customers - and Elizabeth pitches Montreal while Philip recognizes the guys want some dudely shenanigans in the wilderness for their bachelor weekend.
Re: The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 03:26 pm (UTC)I'd even put Martha even in a slightly different situation than Annelise because she thinks she's spying for her same country, even. But otherwise yes, it's interesting to look at all the people for whom romance is part of it. Like in Martha's case she was onboard already because Clark is allegedly just making sure her own department doesn't have any moles, but it requires something more personal for her to start bugging people.
I do think Philip's reaction about Henry is interesting, because even knowing that Fred must already know Henry is his son he doesn't even want the guy thinking about him--though he's willing to have him meet his wife. Iirc it doesn't seem like he's met Leanne, so it's like Emmett went for kids when he wanted to tell the guy about himself personally. That also links back to Emmett being the one who threw Henry into the brush pass to begin with, with Philip immediately saying "we don't use our kids" and Emmett brushing it off as if he wasn't really using him. (And then he brings up taking out a surveillance team with the kids there.) So I think there was an undercurrent of a difference of opinion there with the Connors. Again we saw Elizabeth and Leanne more on the same page, at least while Leanne was alive (and even after Elizabeth decides against giving the letter to Jared she'll come to wish she had.) While Philip and Emmett are often in mild conflict.
Really, it's an incredibly well-done set up for the conflict at the end of the season, since Elizabeth starts out being wary about having children at all, not because she fears for them but because she never wanted them. So the children, for her, were about the job from the start. Then she's got the promise to Leanne, a fellow agent, who wants her kids to know about their struggle. She fails to pass the letter because in that moment she puts the child first--then goes on to see that as the wrong choice because it turns out it probably would have helped Jared to hear his parents' story from their own mouths.
Meanwhile Philip is pushed into using Henry by Emmett and feels guilty, then gets pushed into it again a bit because of Fred. (And while Emmett no doubt wanted Henry used because it made Philip less suspicious, he also would have known that Fred would react positively to another agent with a kid, so in a way he was pushing Philip to use the kids even more.) Philip isn't involved in the letter for Jared, except to support Elizabeth's decision not to give it to him when she worries about it. And I suspect he hears different things in Jared's final confession than Elizabeth does, slightly. (Like iirc it's Philip who asks why he killed his sister.) All of which builds to Elizabeth having good reason to think the kids should be brought into the fold and Philip to want to keep them out entirely.
It is interesting to think that Emmett never actually told Fred his real name--or appeared without disguise. And yet he talked about his son. That says Emmett arranged his different lives a little differently than both Philip or Elizabeth.
I love Elizabeth's line about the revolution--btw, the Sandinista's name is Lucia, not Consuelo--and I think she's being honest as well. That sets up another way Philip and Elizabeth are different this season--Philip is doubting more each day that the things everyone is doing is beautiful and moving them closer to victory. He'd have to work hard to deliver that line with the kind of honesty and strength that comes naturally to Elizabeth if he could do it at all. So if the scene in the travel agency wonderfully shows Philip finding it easier to understand customers like Stan's friends, Elizabeth is better at selling their line of work to eager recruits.
I love that moment with the dude ranch, though. There's almost a running joke of Elizabeth constantly trying to make people enthusiastic for things "European" (Mosco for Gregory, Paige for her saved money, the dudes here for Montreal). Sometimes I wonder if there's a little subtle character foundation here with Smolensk vs. Tobolsk. I don't know much about either city, but I know Smolensk is close to the west (thus it's invaded a lot) and I wonder if Elizabeth has always fancied herself sort of cosmopolitan. Regardless, she's just so off in that scene where she's trying to sell it it's hilarious.
Re: The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 04:54 pm (UTC)I do think Philip's reaction about Henry is interesting, because even knowing that Fred must already know Henry is his son he doesn't even want the guy thinking about him--though he's willing to have him meet his wife. Iirc it doesn't seem like he's met Leanne, so it's like Emmett went for kids when he wanted to tell the guy about himself personally
Yes, I think it's clear Fred needs to think he knows his handler as a person, that he's trusted with some non-spy parts of his handler's life. For Emmett, this meant telling him about his son. (We don't know whether or not he also mentioned his daughter.) Which does imply the existence of a mother, but I agree that Fred doesn't seem to have met Leanne (or if he did, only as heavily disguised as "Paul" since he didn't recognize her picture, either). For Philip, I think Elizabeth is different than the kids because she's an adult and his partner in spying. Whereas the kids are really a no-go zone for him.
re: Elizabeth and the European things running gag: I noticed that. I think, hilarity aside, it fits with ELizabeth defining herself consciously as not-American, even though of course she sells her cover very well. But she hasn't been in Russia - or anywhere in Eastern Europe - for so many years that it's become more an ideal than a reality. There's also the question: how long did she actually have the chance to be there? Assuming she left Smolensk at age 17 and left Russia in her early 20s for the US, that's just four or so years during which she'd have been mostly busy training. It reminds me a bit of that longing for Moscow in Three Sisters, and they don't know Moscow at all.
Regardless, she's just so off in that scene where she's trying to sell it it's hilarious.
Indeed. Btw, I wonder how many customers Stan is bringing to the agency out of friendship, and how many of those are government employes. It would be, well, Al Capone/tax fraud irony like if P & E would got caught eventually because of a dissatisfied travel agency customer does some research...
Re: The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 05:11 pm (UTC)Yes, that's what I see too. I think it's all about Elizabeth's way of seeing herself and can work in different ways. On one hand it's just not America, and she'd want to encourage anybody to get away from that influence. She also seems to associate it with culture. Yet we don't see Elizabeth particularly interested in culture--it's not like she's taking the kids to the opera or museums (which seems to be the type of thing she means). So it does seem like it's almost an ideal. Philip is the one we see interested in things like country music and sports as an actual interest.
So maybe it's that that makes me wonder if there's also a difference in the way they even define being Russian, since they're from two places very far apart and she's from a bigger city. And also European Russia vs. Siberia. Neither of them spent much time as adults in Russia, but did spend their formative years there and since then they've always had to define themselves against the culture around them, even if they did it in different ways.
It would be great if they used that for a mission too. Can't hurt to know any personal things going on at the FBI.
Yes, which makes sense. And interesting that until now Elizabeth saw it much the same way. Though she's up for recruiting Paige officially, she didn't want her brought into their work as props or covers beyond what they already were. I guess that's something that will come up next season, the point to which they see them as covers or real family. She seemed to support Philip's use of Henry at the park, but that fit in with the way they usually deal with each other--he was upset, so she took the opposite side. That doesn't mean she would have liked the idea if it was presented to her instead of Philip. (Of course, Philip doesn't refuse to use Henry in the crunch, just as Elizabeth chose to burn the letter in the crunch. So it's never quite so simple as they seem.)
Re: The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 04:16 pm (UTC)The fact that the FBI know who Arkady really is doesn't change anything.
A few things that I'm pondering about:
1. In Fred's bedroom, Philip goes right to the locked drawer. He doesn't check anything else. Did I miss something there?
2. Fred says he doesn't recognize Emmet without a disguise. But Emmet was about to meet him without a disguise in the fair. And besides that, Emmet says he often used his kids, and wouldn't they start asking questions if their parents started dressing up? So I assume every time they used their kids, was without a disguise.
I loved the last line - there's always a choice, and that resonates with the season finale.
Re: The Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 04:35 pm (UTC)If Emmett has used the kids before you're right, he wouldn't be in disguise.
I guess when Philip goes in he might automatically go to the drawer that looks important--he may have good instincts about that by now.
Re: The Cardinal - locked drawer
Date: 2014-11-29 08:49 pm (UTC)Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 04:33 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 09:18 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 09:43 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 09:57 pm (UTC)So it seems like the first time he's saying he wants all the operational reports from Cardinal in the first message, then in the second message he's almost just signing off with it as if he's Cardinal. I'd love to ask the translator what the deal is there because there's nothing in the second line about Cardinal and I don't see how he would be relative to the walk in.
Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 10:04 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 10:11 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 10:17 pm (UTC)Re: Russian translation
Date: 2014-11-29 09:59 pm (UTC)the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-29 11:11 am (UTC)Then there are the flashbacks, who fit in far better than the s1 flashbacks in such episodes as the above mentioned when Stan is avenging Amador, and suddenly gets a past as BFFs with him, or the ones where Zukhov expositions about love to Elizabeth. Here, the flashbacks do show the friendship between Elizabeth and Leanne, yes, but that's not their main theme, which is Elizabeth's mixed feelings about motherhood and how to be a parent, what it means to be a parent. The state of relationships is shown, rather than told - both true about Leanne & Elizabeth, and Elizabeth & Philip. BTW, do we think this is the first time E & P had sex, or is her "I'm ready" solely confined to "I'm ready to have children", and they did have sex before. (Though if so, for work related reasons or as part of their training)? Anyway, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I'm intrigued by Elizabeth telling Philip he'll be a good father - that expression of faith is probably the first personal compliment she ever pays him, and yet it can't be more than guess work given that they're still so young and early in their relationship as spy partners, and I doubt they ever talked about childraising.
Elizabeth evidently identifies with Leanne's desire to let her child know the truth, and feels bound to her promise both for friendship and honor reasons, but in the end decides not to give Jared the letter, that he's better off not knowing and his welfare comes first, which implies something about what she thinks, at this point, would be best for her own children as well. Unfortunately, given what she'll find out about Jared months later, I suspect she comes to regret this and see it as the wrong decision. On a lighter note, the Elizabeth and Philip exchange about who'd take the kids if something were to happen to them, and P deadpans "the Beemans", may be a joke on Philip's part, but I suspect he halfway means it. I.e. thinks that Stan and Sandra actually WOULD take the kids in such an event.
Paige taking her investigation on her parents further to visit "Aunt Helen": there's a plothole here, i.e. if ""Helen" lives near enough so Paige can get there and back with the bus within a day, there's no reason why the children couldn't have visited Elizabeth during the three months she was supposedly staying with Helen at least once. But I don't care, because it gives us the awesomely intense and chilling Philip and Paige scene when she comes home. (It also gives us Kelly, whom during first watching I assumed to have been a KGB mole and thought, come on, they sent a TEENAGER to supervise Paige? Evidently not; Kelly is just what she seems and mainly in the plot to get Paige into contact with the church.) This is where Paige's view of her parents undergoes its next shock, after the separation and then the sight of them having sex, only this third instance has to be far more disturbing. Because her idea of Philip isn't just him being the fun parent to Elizabeth's task master, but also as the cuddly one who is so conflict averse that he even leaves creeps at the mole alone. And now he's truly, deeply angry at her. Though I think she could handle blowing-up anger better - after all, she knows she did do something wrong - than Philip's intense, cold manner. This is arguably the first time not just Paige but the audience sees Philip being his non-Jennings-dad-and-travel-agent self with one of his children. The whole "lying will not be tolerated" and "I was six" is Mischa the KGB agent, and him Paige has never met before.
(Sidenote: while P is unlikely to blunder by telling Paige something in conflict to previously established tales about her grandparents - and evidently P & E have to be orphans so nobody needs to play their parents for years - I still think that little factoid is true in as much as at least one of Mischa's parents did die when he was six.)
Jared's grief here: isn't really faked, imo. If he's not a pure sociopath, what he did has to weigh terribly on him (especially before he has months to rationalize it), and Elizabeth saying "it's not your fault" has to rub it in. At the same time, he probably made up the story of the ear infection specifically so he'd have an excuse to say "if only" and cry.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-29 03:51 pm (UTC)And yeah, interesting to wonder why she thinks he'll be a good father, because I don't think she'd say it if she didn't believe it, and she seems to be thinking it consciously for the first time at that moment. Given who Elizabeth is, I don't tend to think of her comment as being only about Philip interacting with children (I doubt she even sees that as the priority in being a parent), but maybe also about him being a caretaker in general. She may have noticed a lot of differences between them at that point and allowed that while she considered him potentially "weak" in some ways, she maybe also saw him as more nurturing and know what to even do with kids.
I do think Philip is only half joking about the Beemans comment. Even if he doesn't see them taking the kids in, I think he hopes his friendship with Stan would give the kids a possible advantage if they ever get captured. It would be good for Henry and Paige to have a personal relationship with a nice FBI man--and Philip does I think by this point know that Stan's a good man who would protect the kids no matter how much he hated Philip.
Paige's fight with Philip is so interesting to me because I think the audience finds him more intimidating than she does. I mean, she's still rolling her eyes at him even after this scene--she's never seen this side of him, but she's got too many years of nice dad behind her to see him as a dangerous person. (And of course he never would be to her.) But still, I agree that in this scene she goes even further into seeing him as unfair and uncomprehending and allied with her mother at her most crazy. It's probably not a coincidence that she goes out and finds herself another nice dad who listens sympathetically--but is also heroic in getting himself arrested. That's interesting to think about, actually, whether Paige would actually be more impressed with a father who's more of an activist.
I don't think Jared's a sociopath either--he's been seriously messed up ever since the KGB told him his whole life was a lie. He's probably somewhat numb and just hanging everything on Kate and the KGB to keep himself from freaking out, telling himself it's all for this great cause. Yet had he been smuggled out he probably wouldn't have much of a life or career waiting for him. He would have had a really sad life, and probably a short one. The few things we know about Jared really do make me feel like he was cut out for a very different life if he was going to be happy--and that's a problem with the second generation program: it targets people for who their parents are rather than who they are.
There again I think we eventually get real foreshadowing or paralleling with Philip and Elizabeth. Elizabeth sees the cause and the KGB as a savior, something that gives protection and strength to people. Philip seems to more only trust the individual's personal ability to survive. There's probably a lot of things that go into Elizabeth's assurance that the KGB could be "good for" Paige but that seems to be part of it.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-29 05:05 pm (UTC)Agreed. Btw, it's interesting that Elizabeth apparantly never considered getting pregnant from one of her targets to avoid having sex with Philip, if the center only required children or at least a child to ensure the cover. (Gregory wasn't an option, both because they couldn't have passed it off as Philip's to the neigbours and because Gregory might have insisted in being involved in the raising, which, again, destroys the cover.)
Even if he doesn't see them taking the kids in, I think he hopes his friendship with Stan would give the kids a possible advantage if they ever get captured.
Mind you, Stan's career might be coming to an early end if that happens, for similar reasons to the Hank and Walt situation over at Breakign Bad (minus Walt's blackmail) - what are the odds people are going to believe Stan missed the couple of illegals living next door to him and even befriended the KGB agent, closely as by now various of his work colleagues can testify? At best, he looks stupid, at worst, there has to be suspicion whether he wasn't turned and working together with them. Especially taking into account Nina, if the FBI has found out by them she was actually reporting on Stan. But I don't think this ever occured to Philip, who doesn't yet know about Nina (as Nina, not as "I have an affair").
It's probably not a coincidence that she goes out and finds herself another nice dad who listens sympathetically--but is also heroic in getting himself arrested.
No, and I think that's why this scene is there - season 1 Paige would not have needed an alternate father figure in Pastor Tim.
Oh, I forgot to mention in my original comment that even Elizabeth's tiny subplot as Jackie has the parent and child theme - the worker tries to appeal to her humanity by bringing up his children, to prevent her from killing him, and for a moment, you think it worked, and then the episode makes it a bit more ambiguous by letting Elizabeth turn the emotional tables on him by taking the photo of his son as a pointed reminder that if he tells on her, the kid may be in danger. (I.e. essentially the Viola ploy.) Now I think it was also that Elizabeth didn't want to kill him - she's not in the same emotional place Philip is re: killing in general, but she's not keen in doing it gratiously, and here she does want to avoid it - but she's not about to be merciful. She needs to make sure the guy doesn't talk.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-29 05:33 pm (UTC)I tend to think she wouldn't have wanted to do that because a) she wants to follow orders and more importantly b) if she's going to have children, she wants Philip to be the father. He's Russian, he's a fellow Directorate S agent and he knows who she is and exactly why she's having the kid. While I do think she had personal resentment about Philip himself as part of her job, I think by that time she'd seen that he wasn't just some guy who saw her as a perk of the job. So given her options--including Gregory--I think she saw Philip as easily the best one.
She doesn't want her body used for carrying some American dupe's baby. (And she'd probably dislike the kid more in that case.) And even if Gregory's genes could pass I don't think she'd want that because that would make the baby something she was choosing for herself personally as a symbol of that relationship. For all she loved Gregory, she kept him very tightly confined to one aspect of her life. He was supposed to be the guy that was all about the cause, and mixing him up with children would destroy that. It would also, I suspect, be scary for her because it would make the baby her own and not Philip's and she really didn't want that. Which goes back to that "you'll be a good father" line.
With Philip she'd already presumably had to make him part of her personal life and she could see how that worked. He had the same background (relatively) as her. Plus, I think it's significant that Philip was actually the first guy she chose to have sex with willingly. It wasn't as consensual as Gregory since she had been ordered to sleep with him by the center, but it was a step in between an asset and sex for pleasure because she got to control it as herself. I honestly think there's a good chance that if she hadn't worked through that aspect with Philip first she wouldn't have been able to take that step with Gregory as well as she did.
And that line from Philip being so dismissive of Pastor Tim as a hero. Elizabeth is the one who's more open about wanting to be loved and admired for herself, but Philip's only really reluctantly decided his kids can't ever do that with him. I think he's somewhat conflicted about this aspect of himself. On one hand, he does things he's not proud of and thinks they'd be ashamed of him if they knew it, but otoh, he actually does have professional pride as we've seen in scenes with Kate, the Israeli agent, and Pastor Tim. I think he's prepared for her to prefer a guy like that for the aspects Philip doesn't think he has himself, but not this. In the scene in the kitchen, Elizabeth is dismissive of his cause (he's doing it for "a fairy tale about heaven" instead of the year) while Philip is dismissive of the "risk" involved in his getting arrested for loitering.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-30 11:09 am (UTC)I think one difference is that Elizabeth gets the basic impulse (eventually) of Paige needing a cause, it's only that the cause in question for her is horribly misguided, plus she resents being looked on by her daughter as a shallow capitalist not interested in the greater good. While for Philip, what's mainly disturbing are the results in Paige - first she's lying to them (and also endangering herself, though she can't know and he can't tell her why he was fearing for her life right then), repeatedly, and then she's fixating on something he can't see the appeal of and hero worshipping a guy who takes 6000 Dollars from a teenager. While disdaining her parents, both, and that has to hurt since Philip until then seems to have had nothing but adoration from both kids. He never abused it, never encouraged them against their mother, on the contrary, but P & E were both aware who'd win the favourite parent poll every time. Elizabeth is used to fighting with Paige, but Philip just isn't.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-29 06:12 pm (UTC)In what way? Do you think she would/should have shown him that letter?
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-30 10:55 am (UTC)However, since Jared was in fact his parents' killer, not least because the KGB had already massively interfered in his life and made him believe it been a lie and his parents hypocrites, it might have helped him (both come to terms with his own guilt and to cope with who his parents were) to hear about his parents and their motivations from themselves, which after their death was only possible via the letter. So, had Elizabeth given him the letter, Jared might have a) confessed to her right then and there, and b) not ended up dead himself a few months later. There was absolutely no way Elizabeth could have known that. But Elizabeth being who she is, I can see her concluding she made the wrong call post reveal, so do I think Elizabeth thinks she should have shown him that letter? Yes.
Re: the Walk-In
Date: 2014-11-30 11:21 am (UTC)Re: the Walk-In Plot Hole
Date: 2014-11-29 09:14 pm (UTC)Fourth weekend of January, 1982
Date: 2014-11-29 04:26 pm (UTC)The Jennings and the Connors go to the fairground on Saturday 23rd January, 1982. (Emmet mentions the meeting with Fred is on Saturday in 'Comrades'.)
Philip spends Saturday night at Martha's and 'Cardinal' starts on Sunday morning.
Arkady sends his message at 9am, Oleg should have got Fred's package at c. 6am
Elizabeth drops off the tape sometime around 9-10 (the clock in the office says 4.15 so seems to be broken) and Arkady plays it for Nina c11-11.30
Damaran arrives 11.14 according to Arkady later
Philip leaves for Chesapeake, arrives in the evening and stays overnight, begins investigating Fred the morning of Monday 25th
He phones Elizabeth just before the kids get out of school, so c. 3pm? Probably only a couple of hours before Fred finishes work
Late afternoon/evening of the 25th -- Philip talks to Fred, Elizabeth leaves the kids to help Lucia, Stan and Nina meet
But Nina implies that the walk-in happened that morning, not the day before
Then Arkady says in his message to Moscow that the walk-in happened on the 25th
Also since Damaran, Martha, Clark and the travel agency employees are all going to work on the first day of 'Cardinal', it seems odd that it would be Sunday.
Have I missed something? If not it's probably a necessary plothole for a well-structured episode, I got confused what day it was the first time I watched it but I could follow everything and I had to write it down to see where the problem was.
'Cardinal' thoughts
Date: 2014-11-29 08:36 pm (UTC)I like that Oleg was right about needing Fred's message. He's really undermining himself by annoying everyone so much they don't listen to him.
Nina seems to be listening in on Arkady being told about the walk-in even though she's being excluded and it's not relevant to her until he presumably tells her it is. It seems like a spy thing to gather as much information as possible.
There are some weird camera angles in the scene with Damaran in the waiting room. Also the peering through keyholes and the voice coming from the wall, and Arkady suddenly shouting something in a language Damaran can't understand. It all feels very paranoid although I'm not sure if it's actually meant to suggest something's wrong with Damaran's mental state.
I'd think the kids would be safer on the bus than in a car with Elizabeth. Even if someone was targetting the illegals' whole families and Amelia wasn't just killed for being a witness, a school bus is a lot more public.
Paige seems really disappointed to miss out on time with Elizabeth. That does seem to go on throughout the season in spite of the suspicions/rebellion -- she tries to explain why she likes youth group to her later on, and she invites her parents to church and wants Elizabeth to help pack for her trip. It's only in the last episode she says she wants to get out of the family and go to college.
Re: 'Cardinal' thoughts
Date: 2014-11-29 10:34 pm (UTC)Yeah, Paige really isn't just cutting off her parents for church. Her storyline seems to be a lot about her trying to establish herself as a person with values and beliefs and she wants them to share them, which is why she's so disappointed when they don't seem to get it. And she's used to her parents being supportive of everything she wants to do.
Re: 'Cardinal' thoughts
Date: 2014-11-30 11:12 am (UTC)Yes, it's not that Oleg isn't smart and willing to work from the start, but his behaviour encourages everyone to see him as the spoiled son of a high level party member who got the post only due to connections and resent him for that. As soon as he dials down and proves he can actually contribute, i.e. when managing to help Nina to pass the lie detector test, people start to listen to him.
Thoughts on 'The Walk-in'
Date: 2014-11-29 09:18 pm (UTC)It definitely never occurred to me that Kelli might be KGB, but if she had been that would have been kind of a parallel with Kate and Jared. Or maybe it's more of a parallel this way since she draws Paige into a new cause.
I wonder if Paige has seen any of the 'family pictures' on Aunt Helen's walls before.
The KGB must have lots of pictures somewhere of P&E in all their different wigs to be able to make those ids all the time. Maybe P&E take them themselves and pass them on.
I wonder if Philip actually believes Elizabeth will give Jared the letter. The 'where are you going?' sounds like he's not sure.
It seems odd to me that Damaran accuses the World Bank of harming middle-class Americans like him and Stan rather than people in developing countries/the Third World. Is this an 80s thing?
I totally forgot that Elizabeth went to the Connors' house to get that letter. I thought Leanne had given it to her in the sixties. Also I think there is a USSR passport in that box.
Elizabeth doesn't really look overjoyed to have a baby at the end, but she's trying to comfort it anyway. I feel like there's a contrast going on with the flashbacks in this episode, that she knew what she should do back then even if she didn't want to but once the kids exist and are their own people it's much more complicated.
Re: Thoughts on 'The Walk-in'
Date: 2014-11-29 10:06 pm (UTC)Heh :-) I didn't even notice that.
Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 09:23 pm (UTC)Second time this season we've seen Philip and Elizabeth turn on the copier before they talk about spy stuff in the office. The office guy is saying "Mr. Philip" again.
The clock line is still great--the thing about this show is little things always get infused with paranoia, so Stan's testing when he notes the clock, and anybody anyone talks to without an ulterior motive must have an ulterior motive. Even if they usually don't.
Nina's line about Oleg being wrong about everyone is so great. Not just because the theme of the show backs her up that nobody is exactly what they seem, but there's also the way characters are define by how they understand or want to understand others.
I'm now remembering how early on it was never clear whether Nina was told to tell Stan about the walk in.
Henry offers to work with Mom and Dad to help out. And Philip refers to him and Elizabeth as "team." Hee.
I love Philip's accent when he's first talking to Paul, like he just automatically does something different. Also he says "Listen to me" twice, verbal tic.
Also it's fitting that while Philip doesn't want to use Henry in the park it's using Jared, as Emmett did, that saves him.
Again, can't help but compare Elizabeth talk with Lucia to Philip's with Paul. They both quickly figure out what's going on with the agent, but with Elizabeth it's like she's assessing everything based on her own experience and the situation--she's advising her not to party with him, saying he wants to be a senator etc. He's a type. Philip's looking at evidence of Fred's personality and putting together Fred's very specific personality (not doing it for money, needs to be personally important to Paul). Part of it is the situation's they're in, but it also fits their personalities.
Also this ep starts another intense relationship with another agent for Elizabeth, one which she'll put second to the cause. While Philip meets of many loners this season. Fred and Lucia will both wind up dead, Lucia by putting her personal connections first, Fred by putting the cause first.
"What was his real name?" Depends on what you mean by real name. And since Fred doesn't question the name he might not know he's Russian.
Philip says Emmett didn't take to many people. Tempting to read into that: he could be describing Elizabeth in those words--you have to see the world the right way. Also he might not ever have taken to Philip. Or else Philip is really only saying that to make Fred feel special.
I like that Philip says Emmett needed you to see the world the way it "really is" because I feel like that's Philip being truthful, just as Elizabeth is with her "beautiful" line later. He'll use it again to Martha. I'm not so sure he means the same thing by it as Fred, though.
Philip could have made his relationship with Fred a little better if he'd confirmed Henry was his son, probably. But he chooses not to do that. (Though he does refer to him to save his life earlier.)
Elizabeth's so great with Lucia. You can see how she thinks coddling is just going to make things worse.
Philip's last line in the ep is one of the most chilling, and one of the big centers of conflict. Elizabeth sees him as having "no choice" in bringing Henry is, just as she sees them as having no choice in bringing in Paige. But Philip's now begun to see all these things as a series of personal choices as well.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-29 09:52 pm (UTC)I thought it was funny the way Philip walks in, turns on the copier as if it's a radio, and then continues on to his office.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-30 11:23 am (UTC)"His followers should have known he was a fake when he told them the message about the upcoming war was in Beatles songs. This is typical for a society that brainwashes its children into buying into the opiate of the masses from anyone with some charisma flinging phrases around. And don't you dare to be bring up Rasputin, that was during the decadent imperialist time of the Romanovs, and at least he didn't ask his followers for cult killings!"
"What was his real name?" Depends on what you mean by real name. And since Fred doesn't question the name he might not know he's Russian
In fact I think it's likely Emmett never told him if he kept the disguise and Paul identity. Wouldn't it encourage fellow feelings in Fred if Fred thought "Paul" was just like him, an American fed up with the system and determined to do something?
Elizabeth sees him as having "no choice" in bringing Henry is, just as she sees them as having no choice in bringing in Paige. But Philip's now begun to see all these things as a series of personal choices as well.
I think he still uses the "no choice" line himself when trying to comfort Elizabeth re: Lucia later in the season - though I could be wrong, I haven't rewatched yet - but I agree, generally this is indeed the divide which is visible here for the first time.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-30 11:29 am (UTC)I looked at the subtitle files - I don't think he does.
But Elizabeth uses that line again, in Martial Eagle, after the Nicaragua camp thing goes all wrong.
ETA: I think this actually goes back to S1. Elizabeth is more likely to say 'we had no choice', while Philip is the one who thinks they do. And it's ironic, because she's the one who keeps on ignoring orders and making her own choices.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-30 03:32 pm (UTC)That’s what makes Elizabeth such a great hypocrite. Smile I mean, she’s got such high standards for herself and others, so when she wants to do something against orders she doesn’t feel like she can do it. She needs to have justification for it. So she usually finds one so she can feel like she’s doing the right thing and doing her duty. But of course this only applies to her own situation. It doesn’t make her any more compassionate or understanding if somebody else does it.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch Cardinal
Date: 2014-11-30 03:30 pm (UTC)Yes, I think he does use it with Lucia as well. And there he probably believes it because if it comes down to protecting themselves vs. Lucia, he’s totally on board for losing Lucia. But here he’s talking about the job vs. family and taking responsibility for it. That’s got to be something that will come up next season with Paige, because both of them have all sorts of personal feelings bound up in whether or not Paige gets recruited.
The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-29 09:59 pm (UTC)As for Elizabeth - even after last season she said she'd made a mistake going against orders, once again she's going on a solo mission. She has no idea how the KGB is 'taking care' of Jared, but she has to do something on her own.
Re: The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-29 10:29 pm (UTC)Elizabeth got to be really conflicted here because the KGB didn't give her the orders about the letters, but she also feels honor-bound to Leanne, and then she's feeling it's not right to do!
Re: The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-29 10:40 pm (UTC)But both of them were just pawns in Arkady's bigger game. Arkady would have 'won' regardless if Stan had succeeded.
Sistermagpie rewatch The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-29 10:24 pm (UTC)I wonder if Elizabeth's decision in the flashback was something she came in prepared to announce, or if she seized on the moment in part in response to Philip's reaction to the war. I mean, I'm sure she'd been rolling it around in her head for a while so had on some level come to the decision, but I don't know if she intended this to be the moment. It is a somewhat fitting one.
I never thought for a second that Kelly was KGB, but she is a recruiter, so it's right that she has a weird vibe to her. And Paige in these very early eps seems to be really aimless, annoyed by all of Henry's little interests. Which is maybe even a tiny, funny, parallel to their parents.
It's so creepy, yet logical, that while Kelly is the person that brings Paige into the group it's soon all about Pastor Tim.
"It always feels better to have someone to talk to" is so Kelly giving her pitch, and even more obviously her offer of talking to "other people who get it."
I love Paige's explanation of how she feels about her parents, how it just feels like something's always going on. It's the perfect description of just what she must be noticing, nothing she can put her finger on, but a general vibe.
The guy in the scene with Elizabeth is great.
Dameron is another loner, one who tries to find a cause/people to back him up but gets betrayed for the higher purpose. He says he has to do something, echoing what Fred said to Philip.
Basically it just seems like Elizabeth is someone who sees the world as basically ordered as long as you stay the course against the evil doers, while these other guys see more chaos and feel somebody just has to do something, even if it's futile.
It's an interesting contrast between people like Philip and Elizabeth who were picked out as trained parts of the intelligence network and their agents who fall into spying through different quirks of their personality. Although Philip and Elizabeth are kind of in between, really, since they have given up their identities. They're not like Arkady or Zhukov.
Somehow I'd never caught that Leanne says that both she and Emmett wrote the letter together.
I love that Philip's antenna immediately goes up when Henry starts telling the story about Paige. And that Henry has great instincts about lying, even if they need to be honed.
That lady has the best 80s sweater.
Philip's great at lurking. He's like Count Dracula welcoming Paige home.
OMG, I never noticed that Paige's fake debate club topic is the ethical ramifications of test tube babies. Not just very 80s, but kind of relative to her situation.
I like how both Philip and Elizabeth, underneath, probably always find it hard not to look at their kids and be amazed at how much they have, so they both default to that when the kids get entitled. (As opposed to when Henry gets caught with the Intellivision, since he's not being entitled.)
I remember after this aired a lot of people seemed to think Philip practically blew his cover here or at least was just the worst parent ever because he did something other than be understanding with Paige. (Plus earlier he leaves Henry totally bereft when he doesn't offer to learn all the constellations with Henry, as a good parent would!)
So Paige's issues with her dad are part of a series of things where some characters look for things to believe in that won't let them down, or that are simple enough to understand, often choosing ideas instead. Paige goes out to see Kelly to talk about her parents after Philip yells at her, and Kelly, too, seems to be at the church because the people in her life let her down. Yet we've seen on the show how avoiding depending on people with their messy emotions can lead to depending on something colder with no emotion.
In fact, there's even that line from Arkady in The Deal where he starts saying how Russians will die for ideas, yet is really justifying putting his Russian agent first.
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-30 11:33 am (UTC)I think it was an in the moment thing though yes, coming after long time deliberations. I.e. she didn't intend to have sex when coming into the house, she was probably still thinking about the mission, but Philip's comment re: war made her feel comradery with him and then it all came together, after weeks or months of mulling it over.
The guy in the scene with Elizabeth is great.
Wasn't he just? He was another case of the show reminding us of the humanity in P & E's dupes and/or victims instead of treating them as easily disposable stooges. You really don't want Elizabeth to kill him, you feel for him.
I like how both Philip and Elizabeth, underneath, probably always find it hard not to look at their kids and be amazed at how much they have
They even talk with Emmett and Leanne about it in the season opener, don't they?
I remember after this aired a lot of people seemed to think Philip practically blew his cover here or at least was just the worst parent ever
Seriously? I mean, even if he had been nobody but P. Jennings, Travel Agent, he'd have laid down the law after having caught his teenage daughter at making unsupervised cross country trips, blatantly lying to him and being unrepentant about it. I'm Paige's age, and I know my parents would have if I'd pulled a stunt like this in the early 80s!
Re: Sistermagpie rewatch The Walk In
Date: 2014-11-30 03:38 pm (UTC)Yes, they say nothing prepares them for the kids growing up...there.
Yes, it was bizarre. They especially seemed to think it was too strange for him to have brought up his parent dying, as if Philip Jennings might not have said exactly the same thing in that situation if his father had died when he was 6. His argument with Paige makes perfect emotional and logical sense. He’s reacting to her implied complaint that she wants more family, so why wouldn’t “Philip Jennings” be stung by that? Sometimes people seem to have expectations for parents that they never reveal any personal emotions of their own, that any conversation with kids has to only acknowledge the child’s feelings, but to me it seems like part of growing up is the opposite. Paige is easily old enough to deal with the fact that her parents, as orphans, might be sensitive on this issue. (Or that they might be sensitive about issues she knows nothing about.)
But basically some felt that the only appropriate thing for him to have said was to have explained to her how dangerous it could be riding a bus.