Links and media and etc.

[jae]

The (first?) trailer for "Cardinal" is out, as well as a full scene from the episode. A new trailer for the second season in general is also out.

The ratings for "Comrades" (season two, episode one) are out, and they are mixed, mostly bad, news. Critic Alyssa Rosenberg, who has been a huge champion of the show, was vocally disappointed on Twitter. But others compared it to what happened with Breaking Bad, implying there's reason to be hopeful.

A couple more season two reviews have trickled in: from the New Republic and from The Atlantic.

Crave Online has an interview with Matthew Rhys.

Indiewire on TV's antihero tradition and how The Americans deviates from it with a compelling romance.

Vulture on That Sex Scene from "Comrades."

E Online talks about the most intense moments from some of the premieres of this past week, including The Americans.

And Complex has one more "talking to the cast at the season two premiere" video.

Comments

[katiac]

I really enjoyed some of the stuff in the Matthew Rhys interview especially. Finding out more about their training/recruitment, or at least why they were motivated to fall into the roles they did relationship-wise is exactly the sort of stuff I find interesting about the show. Particularly if it focuses on Philip's end, which I feel like it would almost have to.

[jae]

It will be fun to get that for sure!

-J

[sistermagpie]

I loved that part too. I was also interested in how he corrected himself on the idea that they chose the job, saying they were chosen for them. Does that mean that they would have just joined the KGB in general and then been picked for the Illegals training without any real desire on their part? I mean, presumably if they really didn't want it at all they would have flunked out of the training, but if they wanted to please their superiors and were good at this...

[jae]

I have no idea how they'll portray it in the show, but it certainly wasn't like that in real life. Real-life illegals were actually kept completely separate from the KGB and told very little about the inner workings of it during their training. It's possible that there were select individuals who were plucked from the ranks of the general KGB recruits to become illegals (I played with that concept in my Elizabeth story), but if it did ever happen, it was very, very rare. For the most part, they were taken from other careers/schools on a very individual basis.

Also, I mean, again based on what I've read, illegals were like rock stars in the Soviet Union. They were a whole pop culture phenomenon, even. Being an illegal was like the awesomest thing you could do. Even people who had doubts about the system otherwise were completely gung-ho about being able to do that particular job because of the status it had in the culture. It would be very very hard to imagine that anyone would be picked for the job without desiring it.

But this is not exactly the real-life KGB that they're portraying on the show, so who knows? It would make me sad if they did it that way, but it is their right.

-J

[sistermagpie]

Some of those things were more my impression--that is, I knew it was considered an awesome job, so I had always assumed that they both wanted it. And I knew from things you'd said that the show had changed things in by even having Elizabeth identify herself as a KGB officer and by having her seeming to be in training that seemed like she was part of the military.

But that made me wonder about that line of MR's. It seems like if he just meant that they were too young to really know what they were getting into he would have said something like that. So I wonder if he means that in this place they were recruited.

If, in reality, they came from other fields...well, actually that's even more fascinating to me because it suggests that they even more have this alternate life they would have had. But how did they pluck people out? Did the program look for signs that someone was good and approach them? Because if something like that happened, even if they were in the KGB, I can see that being translated into saying the job was chosen for them, even if they enthusiastically accepted it.

[jae]

But how did they pluck people out? Did the program look for signs that someone was good and approach them?

Yes, that's exactly it. For example, I read one book written by a man who had been through illegals training but never actually served as an illegal (it's never clear why, and I'm just dying to know, but that's not the point), and he'd been in graduate school in...I think physics? And it turned out that this guy who he'd noticed sort of watching him for a few years (and been a little nervous about, because he thought it had something to do with his performance) had actually been from the recruitment wing of Directorate S. He only found out when they asked him to join up. But they watched people for a LONG time before approaching them, for the most part, and I'm sure there were lots more who they didn't eventually approach for one reason or another.

-J

[sistermagpie]

See, that to me actually makes a lot of sense. More sense than most things. And it also fits with stuff I've read about spy making in general. Because while there are some families where they work in, say, the NSA for generations because they know their background etc., a lot of what I've read really stresses how spies are kind of born not made. Of if they're made it's by life experience. You can't just sign up for spying and be like Philip and Elizabeth are. It's so obviously a long psychological slog that they'd be crazy not to watch people for very specific things, just as a baseball scout would watch people playing baseball.

I'm really hoping that's what they're getting at given MR's quote. Because I can certainly see both of them having qualities that they might flag as possibilities for this program. Elizabeth, as we know, has that fear of surrender that they really seem to value in this universe. And the kinds of skills that Philip has that make him good at the job would doubtless have shown up in his life elsewhere too.

[katiac]

I mean, I think merely the fact that they're starting to talk about it is a good sign. In other interviews he'll flat out say, "We haven't filmed anything like that, so I don't know," and he for instance said there's not much Philip/Stan stuff right now :(, and it seems like whatever direction the show is heading kind of informs the answers, both because that's a good way to get the audience thinking in the right direction and also because that would be on your mind if it's the major push in what you're character is doing day after day.

[jae]

It's so obviously a long psychological slog that they'd be crazy not to watch people for very specific things, just as a baseball scout would watch people playing baseball.

Right. And it's important to remember, too, that the illegals program is unique in the world--there isn't another spy agency anywhere that uses that particular technique. So they'd be looking for what makes a good spy, but they'd be looking for other very particular things too. I imagine that a recruiter from that particular branch of Directorate S (it's rather benignly called Department Three) has a really tough job.

And this is off-topic, but I can't resist: one thing that always bowls me over is that they still exist! Like, for all of the HUGE changes that have happened between the Soviet Union and modern-day Russia, the illegals program has stayed more or less intact, just like in the olden days, from all evidence--even with some of the same operatives who were recruited from the Cold War era. And based on how the SVR illegals discovered in the U.S. a few years back were received when they were bought back by Russia (especially Anna Chapman), it sounds like the "rock star" status hasn't changed much either.

-J

[sistermagpie]

Department Three actually sounds wonderfully terrifying.

I have to ask--what sorts of things in particular were they looking for, if you know?

I love that Philip and Elizabeth pretty much are the coolest people in Russia. Because in Russia apparently that's a thing that's easy to identify and they're it. And they're frankly even cooler than the real thing, I would guess.

[jae]

It sounds like the Department Three representatives were mostly stationed in language schools, so linguistic skills definitely. Here's an excerpt from my notes:

The Third Department of Directorate S deals with the selection and training of illegals. The officials of this department are constantly studying students attending institutions of higher education which teach languages and other subjects in order to select candidates for the role of an illegal. For instance, at the Institute which I attended, we knew that Tsarkov, the dean’s assistant, belonged to the KGB, and we believed that his main occupation was to keep tabs on the students. It then turned out that he was an officer in the Third Department of ’S’ Directorate. After I had started working in the KGB, I ran across him in my own Directorate. The Third Department maintains close contact with the KGBs in the republics. There are sections there in their First Departments which select and study candidates to become illegals. They pay particular attention to ethnic minorities who have settled in the Soviet Union from neighbouring countries. In practical terms this means the whole of Asia and Europe.

And yeah, Philip and Elizabeth are SO much cooler than Anna Chapman. :)

-J

[jae]

Another bit from the same book (and then I will stop, because this is seriously getting WAY off topic!):

It must not be thought that illegals are turned out in their hundreds. Dozens of candidates are selected, but only single individuals succeed in becoming illegals. This is how it works. For example, there is a student in an institute of higher education which teaches languages. He reveals an excellent linguistic talent. He is well developed intellectually, has a strong personality, and his appearance is such that he could pass as a citizen of a certain country in Western Europe. He is morally sound. All this attracts the attention of the Third Department, and they begin to secretly check him out. Should the results of this vetting prove favourable, he will be offered work in the KGB. If he accepts, then he may be told that he is being considered as a candidate for the role of an illegal. If he accepts this as well, his special training will begin after he has finished his studies at his institute. Should the student not accept the proposition, a written undertaking of non-disclosure must be obtained from him and he is then left in peace. There are no repercussions.

-J

[sistermagpie]

See, that's exactly the type of thing I'd like to see hinted at. It's possible that the two of them came into the program in different ways, but what this describes just makes so much sense. It's also a bit funny that more than one person has said to me that KR and MR just "don't look Russian at all" but of course that fits too.

On one hand it almost makes me imagine that things were really different for Elizabeth, and that this is why she seems to have a real mentor in Zhukov perhaps because she scored so well in the "morally sound" and "strong personality" areas, with skills in languages too. But I'd love it if Philip got pulled in from a very different angle.

[katiac]

Like the one thing I notice (and this could just be coincidence) is that they always portrayed Elizabeth as having a stronger accent way back when. Even when they're at the same stages of training, Elizabeth will have a noticeable Russian accent and Philip sounds naturally American. Of course this could merely be because Keri Russell isn't having to change her accent twice over like Matthew Rhys would to do the same thing, but I've always wondered if Philip came in because of the extreme language talent and natural spy skills, and Elizabeth was noticed more because of her devotion and willingness to do anything for the cause. Hopefully we'll find out this season!

[sistermagpie]

Did we see them at the same stage of training? I feel like we saw Elizabeth with Timoshev and a thick accent, and then by the time she meets Philip they both speak like Americans. But we never hear Philip speak English at an earlier stage of his life before meeting her. The only scene we have is where he's with Irina, and they're speaking Russian.

Though in my head I do imagine him speaking without the accent. This will no doubt be jossed this season when they have some flashback to him struggling even more so Matthew Rhys can impress everybody with his Russian accent. But I'd so love it if they did that differently.

I've been wondering, too, if we might see flashbacks with Leanne and Emmett with the Jennings.

[jae]

Did we see them at the same stage of training? I feel like we saw Elizabeth with Timoshev and a thick accent, and then by the time she meets Philip they both speak like Americans. But we never hear Philip speak English at an earlier stage of his life before meeting her. The only scene we have is where he's with Irina, and they're speaking Russian.

For what it's worth, this was my impression as well. Elizabeth seems more uncertain than he does at the time they meet, but her English isn't more accented.

-J

[katiac]

We do a few times. Like we see them in Zhukov's office 2 years in and Philip doesn't have an accent. And when we see them arrive in the US in 1965, Elizabeth still sounds pretty stilted and "Is it cool air?" and Philip sounds like he's been around forever.

Of course, they may go an entirely different direction, and I'm sure Philip did have an accent along the way--I just kind of imagine in the same way he reads people and changes who he needs to be to fit, that fluidity might transfer over to picking up language more easily as well.

I'm curious to see more of Leanne and Emmett too! They seem a few years older, so I'm not sure if they would've known each other in training, though I guess they could've, but I definitely am interested in how some of those earlier meetings went. And I really want to know what happens with the son. You would think they might want to pick up on that some more as the whole "what happens to the kids if something happens to us and not them?" would play in as a major thread and they have a real life example.

[lovingboth]

"there isn't another spy agency anywhere that uses that particular technique"

How do you know?

[jae]

Well, I suppose you can't know for sure! I've seen that referred to in a lot of places, though, and I do think it would be very, very difficult to keep an entire programme like that a secret--the world's intelligence agencies knew of the existence of the KGB illegals before any of them had ever been caught, for example. So if someone else had an entire elaborate illegals-style programme, it would be known, or at least rumoured.

-J

[treonb]

To answer with a question: why did the Russians even need such a program? Why couldn't they send 'regular' spies? What advantages did they get from long-term embedded spies?

[jae]

Well, there are certainly those (both former Soviet/Russian folks and Americans) who think they didn't/don't need the programme, and/or that it's a lot of expense for very little gain. The fact that it's still ongoing, though, suggests at least to me that they must get some benefit out of it. If nothing else, it's a psychological hold over other countries because it's something they don't have. The idea of illegals makes people crazy (we see that a little on the show, even).

-J

[treonb]

The fact that it's still ongoing, though, suggests at least to me that they must get some benefit out of it.

Or that they already made the major investment and bringing those people back would mean throwing all of it down the drain. Keeping them in place costs them nothing and might prove useful in the future.

[jae]

As I understand it, though, they're still training them.

-J

[katiac]

But that made me wonder about that line of MR's. It seems like if he just meant that they were too young to really know what they were getting into he would have said something like that. So I wonder if he means that in this place they were recruited.

Ha, now that I can read this (site has been a little glitchy for me today) yes, that's what I was wondering. He's said something like that before.

If, in reality, they came from other fields...well, actually that's even more fascinating to me because it suggests that they even more have this alternate life they would have had. But how did they pluck people out? Did the program look for signs that someone was good and approach them? Because if something like that happened, even if they were in the KGB, I can see that being translated into saying the job was chosen for them, even if they enthusiastically accepted it.

This is kind of what I was wondering about Philip and played around with in one flashback chapter of my fic, if he might've been like studying at a university or school somewhere and then gotten plucked out because one of his teachers/supervisors noticed he was especially talented with languages and had potential. It's kind of hard to know how they'd do it on the show though, because the factual accounts you read are so very different from what's on the show (and that works for me for dramatic purposes) that it's hard to know what they'll decide to make their reality.

And yes, I'd agree that could also mean the job was "chosen" for them, particularly given the lack of other opportunities they might've had. Matthew Rhys has said over and over again how Philip grew up in this impoverished environment. It's hard to know if he's saying that because it's been in a future episode, because Joel Fields and Joe Weisberg told him so, or because he researched the time period and just about everyone was, but it would be easy to see for someone who came from very little, why they'd jump at the chance to survive, and in fact have the potential to flourish, even if it came with some drawbacks. When you're in that situation, you're thinking short term survival rather than "would this bother me 20 years from now?"

[katiac]

I know, right? Whatever the answer turns out to be, exploring this subject sounds so great.

Like when I first read it, I thought he was referring to the age thing again--how they made this choice to join the KGB at 17 before they really knew who they were, and then sort of got locked into that path--but you're right it maybe could also be more literal. And really, even if they weren't overtly forced into it, it's easy enough to imagine them in a situation where they don't really have a lot of other options so they're not even looking at it that way like they could opt out.

On the other hand, I would imagine to do that sort of job would almost have to come with some level of desire and the KGB head honchos have to also know that if they pick and train agents who don't really want to do the job 100%, they'll just bolt the moment they get on US soil and trade their secrets for immunity and a cash payout. And the KGB wouldn't want that either.

So excited to see where they go with this! And I like that even though we've only seen the one episode, already there seems to be more of an equal focus. Last season it was mostly Elizabeth a lot of the time. Here Philip played a much more critical role from the start of the episode to the finish, with both of them being highlighted at different points for the emotional strain they were going through. I would say they even focused more heavily on Philip a little, because when I read reviews saying Elizabeth was showing the stress of her injury and being back too soon, I was like huh? and hadn't really even picked up on that so much as Philip's pain at different events throughout, which were zoomed in on much more strongly.