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theamericansAired:
25 May 2016 in the U.S. and Canada
This is a discussion post for episode 411 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season four, episode eleven.)
Original promo trailer
Overnight reviews
From Vulture
From the LA Times
From the New York Times
From the Seattle P-I
From the Wall Street Journal
From Entertainment Weekly
From Paste
From Slant
From People's World
From IGN
From Indiewire
From Inverse
From Hidden Remote
From For the Win
From tv.com
From the Observer
From Mstarsnews
From Celebrity Dirty Laundry
From Den of Geek
From Geeks of Doom
From TV Equals
From TV Fanatic
From The Young Folks
From Showbiz Junkies
25 May 2016 in the U.S. and Canada
This is a discussion post for episode 411 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season four, episode eleven.)
Original promo trailer
Overnight reviews
From Vulture
From the LA Times
From the New York Times
From the Seattle P-I
From the Wall Street Journal
From Entertainment Weekly
From Paste
From Slant
From People's World
From IGN
From Indiewire
From Inverse
From Hidden Remote
From For the Win
From tv.com
From the Observer
From Mstarsnews
From Celebrity Dirty Laundry
From Den of Geek
From Geeks of Doom
From TV Equals
From TV Fanatic
From The Young Folks
From Showbiz Junkies
Real Episode Title: "Most Awkward Dinner Ever"
Date: 2016-05-26 06:10 am (UTC)1 - I somehow did not see that particular play coming re: Don. What's the over/under on him committing suicide in response to all that? At a minimum, divorce? Of course, we may never know since there is almost no way Elizabeth would know.
2 - I am almost worried Pastor Tim/the church is about to become Elizabeth's EST.
3 - MOST AWKWARD DINNER EVER. It is a testament to the skills of Phillip and Elizabeth that they didn't so much as flinch. And Paige. I didn't really think she could hold up.
4 - Anyone else think Paige may start working Matthew? You know Elizabeth was thinking it.
5 - Paige gets to witness Elizabeth being a badass, but boy. First, the minute they were walking on a badly-lit street at night, I was certain they'd be attacked. Second, oh, Paige. Suspecting your parents have people killed is one thing. The sad part is that it was self-defense and really, Elizabeth protecting her daughter (I sure hope I would be able to do that in her situation, frankly). Paige isn't likely to grasp that part, not that she can be blamed. Two episodes left - I am riveted.
6 - Stan and Oleg. I am a bit surprised Stan didn't blame Oleg by proxy for Gaad's death.
7 - Oh, hell. Phillip went out of his way to remind us that he knew about Gaad being in Thailand. That's gonna be an issue.
Re: Real Episode Title: "Most Awkward Dinner Ever"
Date: 2016-05-26 06:43 am (UTC)Not unless she decides to keep an eye on Young Hee in another disguise, but even at a distance, that would be a terrible risk for her to take - if Young Hee sees her now, it could endanger not just this particular operation but Elizabeth Jennings' existene as well. Otoh, it has occured to me that Elizabeth might ask Hans to see how Young Hee is doing? He's a complete stranger to both Young Hee and Don and has no connection to Patty.
Matthew: the more I think about it, the bigger a step it appears to me for Paige to volunteer that information to Elizabeth. Because as opposed to anything related to Tim and Alice, there was no parental obligation on her to do so. Nobody knew Matthew had told her. But she thought it might be useful for her parents to know, and so she shared the information.
Phillip went out of his way to remind us that he knew about Gaad being in Thailand. That's gonna be an issue.
Yes, though I think more on P & E's side than on Stan's. Note that they were both considering that Gaad could have been executed. (He wasn't, but they have no way of knowing that.)
Keeping an eye on Young Hee
From:Elizabeth & the church and Paige & Matthew
Date: 2016-05-27 02:52 am (UTC)This did have strange parallels to the EST storyline for Philip, especially because the Young Hee situation feels like Elizabeth's version of Philip's Martha operation. however, Elizabeth is so good at just channeling the inner turmoil she's feeling to just keep working the people she's manipulating so I'm also inclined to think she's just playing it up for Pastor Tim. Still, agreed that there was a definite parallel there.
Yes, although what happened afterward with the guy's death may throw a wrench in that of course. but I also loved this part for how Paige leveraged this information to try and get her mom to allow her to drive.
My review
Date: 2016-05-26 06:30 am (UTC)It’s both more clever and more vile than a simple blackmail operation. And more inherently destructive to Don and Young Hee. Young Hee probably could have forgiven a one night stand, even with a friend, though it would have been hard. But pregnancy-suicide? And how likely is it Don won’t break down and tell her now? That’s what Elizabeth meant last week when she told Gabriel that it was this step, not the fake one night stand, that would destroy Young Hee and Don.
That the Centre didn’t go for her request, btw, was no surprise. Otoh what was a surprise that Stan, in the same episode, chooses not to blackmail Oleg. I fully expected him to, roaring rampage of revenge and all, and kept wondering whether this was meant to be reverse psychology during his conversation with Oleg, but no, so far, at least, Stan seems to actually mean what he said. Which in turn means he did learn something from the Amador events in season 1. (And note he calls his own murder “just as bad” as Amador’s – as he doesn’t know how Amador actually died.) I like it when the show overturns my expectations like that, especially if it means we won’t get into a repeat storyline as I feared when Gaad died in the last episode. Otoh I can’t believe we’re actually done with Oleg and Stan, and so I wonder whether my other guess about Oleg’s growing issues leading him to offer becoming a double may still come true.
Another surprise: the titular “dinner for 7” being less awkward than I had expected. I mean, there was awkwardness, but come on. Given the circumstances, it went amazingly well. (My comparisons for awkward cast dinners – in a glorious entertainment for the viewers kind of way – are the ones with Arvin Sloane as host and the Bristows as guests in seasons 1 and 4 of Alias, and more recently the awkwardly starting yet then touching dinner in Bates Motel season 3.) I mean, Pastor Tim was startled to find out the neighbor next door and friend of the family was an FBI agent, but he didn’t display his surprise in a way that made Stan suspicious, and Alice didn’t, either.
On a note of “is this real or not?” Elizabeth throughout the episode getting in conversation with Pastor Tim. During the second time this happened, I thought I had figured it out, that she was after the tape (if it exists, and wasn’t just a bluff) Alice made and wanted to lead him into handing it over to her. And during the next encounter, when she evidently had Young Hee on her mind, I wondered whether what was happening was similar to Elizabeth’s season 2 conversations with Brad and Lisa, where she talked to her assets about something that was truly troubling her at the time, i.e. used a professional circumstance (and Tim is an asset now, whether or not he’s aware of that, they’re working him) for some emotional relief . Or: the fact that Tim shows up early in the episode to apologize actually made Elizabeth warm up to him a bit. Or it could be all of the above. I guess we’ll see.
Of course, in the episode’s final scene with Paige, Elizabeth cooly analyzes the situation – i.e. that Alice and Tim feel guilty being of advantage – and that in addition to being true also gives Paige the impression of being trusted; in fact, she can see the emotional mechanics at work here herself and has another spy-in-training moment when telling her mother what Matthew told her – right before witnessing, for the first time, an undisguised truth her parents have kept carefully hidden from her so far, i.e. just how lethally dangerous they are. I knew what was coming as soon as the two men intent on mugging (and potentially raping?) showed up, but that didn’t stop me from holding my breath. And to her credit, Elizabeth at first tries to defuse the situation by handing over her wallet, not for the muggers’ sakes but because she knows what this will mean to Paige. But when it doesn’t work, Paige witnesses her mother being a trained killer in action, and there’s no way to unsee that, ever again. No matter how much or little Paige at this point bought into her parents’ insistence that what they do doesn’t involve hurting people, there is a difference between speculation and knowing. Of course here her mother was protecting her. But Paige is too smart not to realize the full implication. And now she’s witnessed death for the first time.
Something tells me it won’t be the last.
Oleg and Stan
Date: 2016-05-26 01:59 pm (UTC)Philip and Stan could happily agree that too many people have been killed for bad reasons, and decide to opt out of it all, but Stan can never know.
Re: Oleg and Stan
From:the Don/Young Hee operation
Date: 2016-05-27 02:55 am (UTC)Yes, that's what made this episode particularly hard to watch at times, for me. They'd really ruined these totally innocent and wonderful people's lives and you could see Elizabeth really feeling the emotional repercussions of it throughout this episode, especially listening to that final voicemail from Young Hee.
It also makes it worse that they didn't just upfront find the Level 4 codes in the office, so who knows if it's all for anything.
I liked how this episode brought up the death of the old woman from last season too, which was another moment for Elizabeth that made her realize the levels that she is forced to resort to that truly destroy other people's lives. "Evil" the woman calls her.
on another note, agreed that it was nice to have the show go a different route with Stan and Oleg cause it would have been overdone otherwise.
Re: the Don/Young Hee operation
From:Re: the Don/Young Hee operation
From:general comment
Date: 2016-05-26 06:39 am (UTC)Faith in a deity or faith in other humans.
All through the episode I was wondering if Elizabeth was truly trying to reach out for comfort from Pastor Tim. But towards the end in the scene with Paige, I got the feeling she had some other plan for being so "soft" in front of him. She always seems to be using her issues to her advantage, even if in the moment she is truly sad or upset (remember that rape confession scene in season 2, was it?). She strikes me as a character who isn't truly looking to be whole, the way Philip is with his EST and tentative friendship with William.
Speaking of which, this whole Don thing...that didn't seem to go as planned at all. Nothing about it has ever worked the way they wanted and not finding anything in his office just enforces that feeling of meaninglessness.
Interesting that Stan seems to have arrived at a point where he wants to come clean and not play the game anymore. Unless that is also a way of manipulating Oleg into doing something out of goodwill.
I mean, honestly, I don't trust anyone on this show anymore. Is that obvious? ;-)
This week's funny detail: Alice being fake pregnant and holding a small salad bowl while Elizabeth/Keri is real pregnant and holds a giant salad bowl. And what was that thing Pastor Tim said about a roast in the oven?
Also also also, I forgot that the Jennings obviously (!) regularly report back to the Centre with whatever "mundane" things they are up to, even the squash games with Stan. That's how a true spy works. It reminded me of Stasi and that German film The Lives of Others.
Re: Roast in the Oven
Date: 2016-05-26 05:57 pm (UTC)It was Stan's dreadful joke about Elizabeth not being the only one with a "roast in the oven."
Re: Roast in the Oven
From:Re: Roast in the Oven
From:Elizabeth & being "soft"
Date: 2016-05-27 03:07 am (UTC)Agreed. I also thought of the rape confession scene. And I think the last Pastor Tim conversation where she asks him about prayer and what one does if one can't stop thinking about something really highlights this quality of hers as a character who isn't truly looking to be whole.
With EST, it's all about confronting all of your emotions and past memories / issues / experiences. Elizabeth has never seen the pragmatism in that as evidenced by her big blowout with Philip.
But then we are beginning to see the cracks in her now, and I think she is too, that maybe even if she isn't looking to be whole, she might not be able to withstand much longer the pressure of juggling her priority of protecting her family with her commitment to the cause. And between the Young Hee and Pastor Tim operations on her this season, it's been taking its toll. (Much like how all of Philip's operations took their toll on him in S3).
It's somewhat ironic too that the show had her commitment to the cause jeopardized in a very real, concrete way of protecting her family, in this case, Paige from those robbers who had potentially more harm to inflict.
While watching thoughts
Date: 2016-05-26 01:48 pm (UTC)Hi Tim. Obviously he came to see them. And he has the sense to think that Henry shouldn't know!
But 'I'm sorry about what happened to you' would be a suicide note for any other character if the incriminating info was destroyed.
Lovely look between Philip and Elizabeth as he goes!
'.. when we had eggs'. This season has had the most 'things weren't good in the Soviet Union' than any of the others, hasn't it?
Right, how's she going to manage it? Pointed long look at the family she is being asked to damage, if not destroy.
Ha at the way she opens the door, not him.
Ha! I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that approach. What is the attitude to abortion in South Korea?
Well, that's step one and step two will be 'well, actually there is something we want from you'.
Very still face from Philip as Stan reckons the KGB set out to murder Gaad and starts saying how evil they are.
Big hug, disturbed by the kids. Another flat-voiced report from Paige.
Philip's being a bit over-sensitive about telling the centre that Gaad was going to Thailand.
Fibber, Elizabeth. And Tim's body language says he knows before he says so.
Nice example of Elizabeth using part of the truth - that they've been under a lot of pressure - to try to get what she wants - the end of the Alice threat.
In that light, from that angle, Stan looks like Adam West as Bruce Wayne..
'What do you want me to say?'
.. and that's a very Adam West Batman thing to do.
'White or red'!
Guess who's coming to dinner? Henry invites the very last person they want at the same table. 'Tim, Alice, this is Stan, HE WORKS FOR FBI COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE...' I doubt Philip and Elizabeth would buy the excuse that they need seven for the episode's title.
'Oh, Stan, before you go in, I know that you're upset by the murder of your old boss by the KGB and that Tim's a priest, but could you not mention anything about that? Or how evil the KGB are?'
'Tim's Paige's pastor.. OUR pastor'.
Typical Stan attempt at a joke. And being pressed to talk about feelings...
Ha at the look between Philip and Elizabeth again.. and argh, we're being cheated by stopping showing it!!
Visiting Don at work, complete with two obviously not entirely healthy ancestors. Nice.
Oooh, blaming him for a suicide, even nicer. Let's hope Young Hee never spots Elizabeth out and about.
Elizabeth using part of the truth again again. And being deliberately charming - how long before she attempts to seduce Tim, I wonder.
Mail robot! And then as part of the plot.
'.. but it's hard to really know' is accurate in more ways than one.
As we see from her reaction to Young Hee's voice message.
A 'manipulating people for beginners' lesson for Paige. Very clumsy change of subject from Paige, after having raised the unasked question of whether or not they had something to do with the spying and disappearance - which she sees as death - of Martha.
And another lesson about to happen with how good at fighting / deadly Elizabeth can be. Ah, yes, definitely deadly, despite leaving a live witness. Oops.
Live witness
Date: 2016-05-26 02:11 pm (UTC)Elizabeth will definitely have to deal with the fallout from Paige over what she's just done.
Elizabeth and Pastor Tim
Date: 2016-05-27 05:16 am (UTC)Elizabeth using part of the truth again again. And being deliberately charming - how long before she attempts to seduce Tim, I wonder.
I don't think she will, for purely pragmatic reasons: it wouldn't help. Her's and Philip's pitch to Tim is that they're really "good people", a loving family, that to expose them would destroy this for Paige. They're playing down all the "bad" tropes associated with spying (of which seduction is certainly one) in favor of presenting themselves as more radical social workers (hence the Jesuit from Nicaragua a few episodes ago). If Elizabeth were to make a pass at Tim, it would destroy all that build up; he could mentally re-classify her as A Bad Woman, and tell himself he'd be doing Paige a favor if he exposed the truth.
Now what I could see is Elizabeth, if she deems it necessary, play a bit in the repentant Magdalene cliché, to give Tim even more of a feeling that he's potentially saving her soul. Basically doing something similar to how Philip got out of having sex with Kimmie - he told her he found Jesus and wants to be good for her sake. But I'm not sure whether that would be an improvement to what she's currently doing, i.e. the whole "we are Paige's loving parents and a close family which you would destroy if you exposed us" point, which at least partly depends on P & E also being presented as a unit, a close marriage. Elizabeth suddenly switching tactics to present herself as longing for another man would, again, go against that image.
Re: Elizabeth and Pastor Tim
From:Re: Elizabeth and Pastor Tim
From:Re: Elizabeth and Pastor Tim
From:Treon's thoughts
Date: 2016-05-26 08:08 pm (UTC)I thought the theme of this episode was guilt. Everybody felt guilty - Tim and Alice felt guilty about blaming P&E, Stan felt guilty about Nina and killing that KGB guy, Elizabeth felt guilty about Young Hee and Don, Philip felt guilty about possibly being responsible for Gaad's murder.
Sometime I felt they were even overdoing it. When Pastor Tim was talking about prayer and saying it didn't matter if you believed, he just had to twist the knife and say that what really matters is how we treat each other. I don't know if that was supposed to convince Elizabeth to pray, but I'm sure it made her feel even worse.
We finally got to the end of the long con on Don. Very risky from the KGB's side and we don't even know if it paid off. I just know that if somebody shows up at my work for something this private, my instinct would be to take them out, not bring them in (though I don't have Don's office).
Elizabeth was probably conning Pastor Tim, getting closer to him, but I think she did really use the opportunity to get things off her chest, and I liked the talks between them.
And I'm already looking forward to the next ep. Paige might be in shock, but she really should be thankful at this point that her mother is a trained KGB officer.
Re: Treon's thoughts
Date: 2016-05-26 10:31 pm (UTC)I didn't see his conversation with Elizabeth as 'twisting the knife' at all. I saw it as more him trying to be priest-counsellor to someone who doesn't believe in God but needs some sort of way to mentally come to terms with something that's bothering them a lot.
Re: Treon's thoughts
From:Guilt
Date: 2016-05-27 03:10 am (UTC)Yes, guilt felt like the resonant motif in this episode. It felt fitting too given all the many threads that were being tied up in this episode and all that's happened throughout this season. It's a nice way to go into the last two episodes with all of this hanging over everyone's heads.
...also agreed on the crackvid part. too many ridiculous moments from the awkward dinner seven to the very quick I'm pregnant / get an abortion / she committed suicide storyline.
Re: Treon's thoughts
Date: 2016-05-27 11:03 am (UTC)The Don con
From:Re: The Don con
From:no subject
Date: 2016-05-26 08:10 pm (UTC)How old is Pastor Tim meant to be, does anyone know? Cause I got the feeling from this episode that he is supposed to be younger than I thought he was - Alice's age, not the significantly older I'd gauged him as. And his faith is actually what I think is getting Elizabeth to speak to him: the things that she struggles to find common ground with Philip about, she actually DOES have common ground with Pastor Tim, even if their actual alignment on the political/religious spectrum is super different. I think we also have to assume Elizabeth is at least kind of playing him. I think Elizabeth is the QUEEN of using the truth to sell a lie, and I think she's doing it again here.
Stan was kinda sexist again and we learn some important stuff. Philip MET GAAD! (And now feels responsible for his death. Which is actually the death I think Philip is LEAST responsible for, but hey.) It was also a reiteration that Stan on the warpath. Stan is not giving up, and now he's realised the potential importance of the Mail Robot. I think that's leading somewhere, right there. Especially with the goodbye conversation with Oleg. That's a sign of a new time for Stan. Stan has been thinking about his past, and Amador, and he is now ready to make some changes.
Even if I am pissed off on Sandra's behalf for the "oh and my wife left me" bit. He may not have MEANT it as badly as it sounded, but I am NOT PLEASED, Beeman.
(Also, Stan calling the KGB "animals" and saying PHILIP HAS NO IDEA oh good god I could barely watch it was so uncomfortable. That was worse for me than the awkward dinner of awkwardness.)
Oh, I had previously theorised Paige might realise her FBI neighbour might be someone to talk to about her concerns about her parents. That's not the case (as witnessed in her bringing up relevant info to them off her own bat, Paige is a goddamn natural at this spy thing) but I think now that with the dinner party introduction...Pastor Tim MIGHT be. I can see him somehow deciding to talk to Stan. I am concerned.
I feel so bad for Yeung Hee and Don. They don't deserve this, neither of them. The actual plan is rather more haphazard than I expected, though, like, I'm glad it's not straight blackmail but they couldn't think of ANY OTHER WAY to get access to that room to just look for codes? They needed MONTHS AND MONTHS OF WORK ON IT for that? They couldn't just set off a fire alarm or break in or something?
And then we get to the final scene of HOLY MOLY. Elizabeth shows Paige what she can do. Paige is really, really good at the non-violent bits of spying, but killing a dude is way out of her comfort zone. Even though it's in defense. This is where we're going to either see Paige become a properly committed Jennings or she's going to bow out completely, I think. Got to wait to find out though!
Philip/Stan conversation
Date: 2016-05-26 08:26 pm (UTC)Re: Philip/Stan conversation
From:Re: Philip/Stan conversation
From:no subject
Date: 2016-05-26 10:34 pm (UTC)It's not that much of a step, I think, to internalizing the fact that her parents had self-defence training in order to be qualified as spies. The harder part will be dealing with the fact that Elizabeth spilled blood to keep Paige safe.
Elizabeth & Pastor Tim, Stan/Philip, and Elizabeth/Paige
Date: 2016-05-27 03:17 am (UTC)I like the way you phrased this. agreed that she is of course playing him to some extent, but you're right that she has common ground with Pastor Tim in a way that she struggles to with Philip. EST is too hokey for her, and religion is of course too, but Pastor's Tim belief in the centrality of faith - whether that's in God or other people or something else - this idea of taking a risk, does seem to speak to her. And the way faith ties into the whole trust / spy issues thing is definitely central to the show and has been from the very beginning when Elizabeth finally takes that leap of faith with Philip and decides to make it "real."
also agreed on the fact that the Stan/Philip conversation was more awkward than dinner seven. it was just too much for Philip and for me.
agreed on your assessment of Paige too. she's either going to become fully committed to her parents or she's going to go out on her own like that Jared kid did....AHHHHH
Sistermagpie's thoughts on first watch - Dinner for 7
Date: 2016-05-26 09:37 pm (UTC)I think Elizabeth later pushy conversations with him all came off that one scene, even if she at times had real emotion about Young Hee etc. bleeding into them. Pastor Tim basically gave them a new way to work him. Instead of it all being about Paige, he can feel bad for her parents as well, and who better to play that then Elizabeth who suddenly needs Tim to know that he alone brought their family together through his awesome preaching, and also did she mention how very vulnerable and scared she felt when Alice was upset? What can she do to help herself since she can't pray...at this time? (Elizabeth, of course, is the one that was going to church all that time.)
I don't think her goal is to get the tape back, since they could make another and this one might not even exist according to the bug, but just to get another hook into Tim. He feels bad, as she told Paige, and could keep feeling that way. (Though her explanation to Paige about the tape sitting in a safe somewhere didn't hold up--she said it was with a lawyer and would go to the DOJ if anything happened to her or Tim.)
Btw, I'd have to watch it again but that last conversation made no sense to me. It seemed like just a way to get Elizabeth to vaguely refer to her problems re: Young Hee and then have Pastor Tim say all that mattered was how we treated each other. Those two ideas both apply to the Young Hee situation, but they do not logically follow from each other given what Elizabeth said.
I loved the final play with Patty. Knew it couldn't be simple blackmail. It's good that Don never even was asked to give up any codes. Also I kind of want to see that family go out to dinner--Patty, her brother, dad and stepmother. I love Philip and Elizabeth playing two different sets of siblings that are so different, and how that was set up from the start.
I could also buy that nice guy Don didn't even think to wonder if he was being played because the whole situation was so awful and scary. This isn't Maurice.
Stan went from calling the KGB animals to baring all to Oleg and saying good-bye. I can't help but see that as part of Stan's ultimate plan. He's been meeting with Oleg for a long time and knows the other things he mentioned are not going to turn him, but playing hard to get might work better. He's even in a position of being the one person who thinks Gaad was murdered. Interesting that he doesn't remember telling Philip as of yet.
He also seemed to really rumple himself up to see Oleg so he'd look more woebegone and like he'd given up.
I was surprised Philip was worried about being the source of the Thailand stuff. I figured he'd report it but I never thought it would really be a danger of that being traced back to him because Gaad was visiting his in-laws with his wife. It's not a secret trip.
I like that Paige seems at least a little to be getting into the fact that her parents are really interesting. Pastor Tim's views of the world were not always wrong by any means, but they had a very specific pov that probably always led back to them being lost etc. I like her talking to her parents about how people work, like when she asked exactly how this crisis in Ethiopia could work to their advantage--seeing how Elizabeth sees things like "working to advantage."
Then Paige herself shares the Matthew intel which she claims he just started telling her but in fact that's not true. Paige asked about his dad in the FBI and Matthew, to impress her or to just have something to say--offered this info up. She didn't go in fishing for it, but she did get it out of him.
I wonder if Paige is going to smoothly lie about that murder next week.
Many elsewhere have claimed that Elizabeth made some mistake in that last scene but I don't see it. There seems to be an idea in some places that Elizabeth is like Wonder Woman with the ability to perfectly calibrate her badass powers and hurt people just as much as she wants. So she should have subdued these guys without killing one. I thought the scene was totally believable as what a tiny woman with great training would do in confronted with two big guys, one with a weapon, while she's with her daughter.
And I loved her just looking around for witnesses, grabbing her wallet, and yelling for Paige to follow her without any comforting or apology beyond one look of wild panic when she'd realized what Paige just saw.
Paige has freakin' choir practice now? Okay, this is getting officially ridiculous, even leaving apart the fact that nobody in that church can sing. In this single ep we had references to Paige at choir practice, Paige at Youth Group and Paige working "a couple o' nights a week" at the food bank, when we've also heard about her working at a food drive or something before school and of course the ever-present Bible study. She's now spending more time with this one asset than Elizabeth and Philip do on all their jobs. And how many activities for teens does this church run? Even the other kids at the church must think Paige is nuts for being in precisely all of them.
But then, this ep also really made me have a hard time buying Pastor Tim's whole religion anyway. They've done this whole thing with "Look, the daughter of the atheists is joining a church and becoming Christian and that's a big deal! Look at her reading the Bible all the time!" and then the Pastor's like "Oh, it doesn't matter what you believe." Those two things do not usually go together! Sometimes it seems like most of the religion in the church comes from props, church-related words and the fact that the guy's always called Pastor.
Basically, when Tim said they were like social justice with a little Jesus thrown in I thought yeah, that is what it seems like. Except usually without the Jesus, unless he's doing social justice or Tim's being compared to them.
A friend of mine invented a drinking game where you take a shot whenever Elizabeth makes salad or puts on lotion. We got two in this ep! Btw, also Elizabeth spending more time looking in the mirror like Philip used to. But I think in the scene in this ep she's looking, he comes up to her without looking in the mirror, but then when he catches sight of himself he makes a face and looks away.
The Mail Robot's about to get busted. As is the person changing his tapes.
The tape
Date: 2016-05-26 10:24 pm (UTC)Ooh, good point. If the tape doesn't exist, and they press Tim and Alice for it, then they'll have to create one. It's risky, because if they're already making one, they might use the opportunity to copy it and send it to a lawyer.
If the tape really doesn't exist, it's best to just let it be.
Pastor Tim 'doesn't matter what you believe'
From:Re: Pastor Tim 'doesn't matter what you believe'
From:Pastor Tim & siblings setup
From:Prayer discussion
From:All that matters is how we act
From:Re: All that matters is how we act
From:Re: Prayer discussion
From:Re: Pastor Tim & siblings setup
From:Re: Sistermagpie's thoughts on first watch - Dinner for 7
From:Patty's poor family
From:Re: Patty's poor family
From:Re: The Don con family
From:Oleg and Stan
From:Re: Oleg and Stan
From:no subject
Date: 2016-05-26 09:54 pm (UTC)http://i.imgur.com/2ShF6d4.jpg
no subject
Date: 2016-05-28 02:39 pm (UTC)The show is leading Philip and Elizabeth to examine their consciences in different ways. With Philip, it's via characters constantly asking him, 'who are you?' and then EST. That approach suits his introspective nature. With Elizabeth, the approach is as direct and blunt as she is: No matter what you believe, you are doing evil. Is she going to listen to this message or reject it?
Speaking of evil people doing evil things: As expected, the whole Young Hee/Don ploy seems to have been for naught. Elizabeth ruined their lives for nothing. Perhaps the KGB will find something in the computer records that will salvage the plan to get William the level four access codes that he needs, but even if they do, that won't lessen Elizabeth's guilt. From a moral perspective, Elizabeth should feel horrible for what she did. From her job perspective though, she can't afford to allow herself to have any regrets. She's starting to develop some cracks in her ability to separate her feelings from her work. It'll be interesting to see where this leads for her.
The dinner party scene was shorter than I'd expected (or hoped) but it was still super awkward. Pastor Tim's reaction to learning that Stan works for the FBI was priceless. Philip and Elizabeth were probably thinking, "Damn it! Now we have even more reason to kill you but we can't!" Elizabeth doubles down on Operation Pastor Tim by presenting herself to him later sounding meek and grateful to him for helping to bring them closer to Paige, etc., all carefully crafted BS designed to sucker him into thinking that he has the upper hand on them. The only time she sounded like she wasn't conning him was in the final conversation that led to Tim's 'it doesn't matter what you believe in' comment. I am intrigued that she allowed herself to seek his advice on a genuine problem. She didn't reveal any details, just as Philip didn't reveal any details in EST about the kid he killed. I wonder if she will continue to go to him seeking a quasi-counselor, and where that might lead.
Pastor Tim and Stan
Date: 2016-05-28 06:20 pm (UTC)Tim could go to Stan to unmask P&E, but I can't see Stan believing him. It would make Stan would amazingly stupid, and besides, what proof does Tim have? Paige would most certainly deny ever saying anything.
Re: Pastor Tim and Stan
From:Re: Pastor Tim and Stan
From:Re: Pastor Tim and Stan
From:no subject
Date: 2016-05-29 08:33 pm (UTC)I do think that Elizabeth was working Pastor Tim in her scenes with him, but I also think she was genuinely (in her own way) asking for advice from him, and that his remark about how you can believe in something but you can't ever know for sure if it's real (possibly not what he actually said, but something close to it) struck a chord, given that she herself is such a believer. She believes that what she does (no matter how repugnant to her, and the Young Hee/Don business is her nadir) is making the world a better place, but how can she ever be sure?
I'm not clear if Stan is playing Oleg by seeming to set him free. I hope not. But he probably is.
no subject
Date: 2016-05-29 09:22 pm (UTC)That's a very good point!