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theamericansThis is the discussion post for "Operation Chronicle" and "Echo" (episodes 2.12 and 2.13) in the group rewatch of seasons one and two. When you rewatched the episodes, was there anything you noticed that you didn't notice the first time (and any subsequent times) you saw them? What things about them did you perhaps view differently after having seen the later episodes?
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
You can expect spoilers for the entire first and second seasons in the comments. Feel free to join in even if you only got to rewatch one of the episodes.
Stealth
Date: 2015-01-09 06:23 pm (UTC)Poor Fred. The first time I thought it was pretty cold, if realistic, for P & E to go for the intel and leave Fred bleeding to death in his phone booth, especially since the police radio told them he'd been spotted. This time around, Philip's "someone sacrificed his life today" in the aftermath of his Pastor Tim annoyance, switching from irritated because of Paige's Tim hero worship to sad on Fred's behalf, struck me as, for Philip, remarkably open. We don't have much indications about how he feels about his assets/agents to run, beyond their usefulness, but I think this shows he respected and liked Fred.
E & P trading childhood stories: characteristically, Elizabeth's is about her and her mother, while Philip's is about himself alone. Both describe hardships - Elizabeth has to take care of her very sick mother (and herself) at age 14 for nine months (no wonder she has frequent "you have no idea how easy you have it" moments with Paige), Philip gets harrassed by bullies when he's younger than Henry - but Philip is interrupted before he can finish his story (though since he gets as far as "no more" and himself doubling back, I assume the rest involved him somehow getting the better of the bullies, and it involved tricksiness since he can't have physically defeated them all).
Stan's dream/nightmare: this time it struck me that none of the three things that happen in it are what you'd expect, i.e. the dream doesn't feature Nina, and it doesn't feature himself getting caught, which you'd think are his primary anxieties at this point. Instead, his subconscious delivers Sandra and her unknown lover, Martha putting a file in her handbag, and the late Vlad whom he killed. Stan still feeling the loss of Sandra despite his Nina involvement makes sense, but I wonder whether his dream featuring Vlad doesn't mean, beyond the obvious (i.e. at some level he does feel guilty about this murder, because that's what it was, never mind the mutual "it's war" blah), that he's still wondering in the back of his mind about whether Nina truly forgave him for this or whether she wasn't lying. Martha taking the file seems to be foreshadowing he did notice something without having put it consciously together as yet but might in s3.
Love advice from the KGB always comes across as weird. Arkady isn't better at it than General Exposition Zukhov was with Elizabeth in the flashbacks. Seriously, though, that's still a scene I can't make sense off. Why does Arkady say this? At the very least, doesn't it imply Nina has told him far more about her relationship with Stan than she would if the story they've been selling Stan were true? Why would he risk this at this crucial point where they really need Stan to believe Nina is 100% sincere and devoted to him?
Larrick not shooting P & E and intending to deliver them alive: I've seen complaints about this elsewhere, but to me it's in character. Larrick is an experienced intelligence officer and devoted to US interests. He knows that P & E are a goldmine of information, and since he doesn't care anymore that they'll reveal his own KGB blackmail caused involvement, delivering them alive is a far better thing to do than just to shoot them. Even from a revenge pov: dying is what they themselves would prefer (he has every reason to assume) to getting captured and compromise their cause. He just has no idea what to do about the teenage tagalong, which dooms him.
The big Jared reveal: look, if we can guy Desdemona speaking after Othello strangled her, Jared gasping out a confession after being shot in the throat is a lesser stretch. :) Rewatching, there's no shock element involved anymore, but it's still a powerful scene. It's an absolute nightmare scenario for P & E, even more than finding Emmet and Leanne and their daughter, because while that was a "our work could kill our children" warning, this is "our work could make our children like us thus turn them against us and destroy them." That's certainly the lesson Philip takes from it. For Elizabeth, it's a somewhat different horror because of her decision not to give Jared the letter, which left him with Kate as the sole source of information. Now I don't think Elizabeth thinks ahead re: Paige at this point, she's too deeply shocked and horrified, but later, after Claudia has delivered the next shock, she evidently does start to think about it.
Speaking of whom: this time around, I paid attention to Claudia's wording, and I noted that what she calls "unforgivable" and says she'd have fought had she known about it is the Centre going behind Emmet & Leanne's backs via to recruit Jared, not the second generation recruitment idea per se, so her subsequent delivery of the Paige news isn't contradictory to her earlier protest. Even Philip's ultimatum to Arkady has this clause - "if our organization ever goes near our daughter without our permission", not "if our organization ever goes near our daughter" at all.
Philip, of course, is completely against any spy future for Paige, and his "we swore", which repeats a phrase Elizabeth used in the pilot, sounds incredibly shocked and betrayed when Elizabeth reveals she's now at least considering it. Note, though, Elizabeth still says "she's our daughter". The Jared scenario is still her nightmare, too, but again, as I said, for her one part nightmare element is in the idea of Paige finding out the truth from other people and being turned against her parents, while part of her starting to rationalize the whole recruitment idea to herself is the lure of being able to share a cause with Paige and being able to tell her the truth.
Even aside from Philip seeing spy work as something that would destroy Paige, I don't think sharing the truth with her is alluring to him. Yes, he was the one who suggested it in the pilot, but that was part of a utopian "let's all get away" scenario, not of a situation where Paige would know him as someone who, in the present, does the kind of work he does. While the Pastor Tim hero worship does irritate him and probably does make him a bit jealous, I don't think he wants Paige to know him as Philip the KGB agent; he wants her to continue to see him as Harmless Beloved Dad.
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-09 08:15 pm (UTC)Interesting that Philip even happened to mention liking Fred earlier. It's a kind of parallel to Lucia and the different situation there, the different role Elizabeth had to play there and her different reaction. I think, since this is the finale and it's tying up so many themes, that it might also show a contrast in the way Philip responds to Fred and many others. He seems to see Fred as basically in the right business. He doesn't mind working with him--despite maintaining wariness. (Again a little contrast to Lucia who in the end turned out to "not get it" in Elizabeth's view.) It's also a death that he can deal with fine, despite being the person he knew somewhat and liked.
I love that P&E's stories are also specifically about adult hardships thrust on kids. Elizabeth isn't nursing her mom through a flu, but a potentially fatal disease. Philip's story starts with him describing gangs long after the war--the kid he saw was the lookout for a street gang, not a bigger kid going after smaller ones. So in both cases the challenge is far beyond their development and capabilities and they probably both had to be creative about how they succeeded. (Which I agree in P's case has to be more about cleverness than brutality).
Stan's dream is wonderfully weird, and I'd never thought of it but yeah, it's just strange he's not having anxiety about getting caught. Plus I like that he seems to keep Nina hidden in his dreams. :-) There's almost two things he unwittingly discovers in the dream--that Martha's stealing files and that the Vlad incident is central to a lot of things. I mean, he knew that because it's brought so much trouble on him, but I think he's also getting that it was a turning point in other ways too. Perhaps with Nina as well.
Yes, exactly. And in a way we're now seeing the flipside in Elizabeth's own Utopian vision of the whole family happily spying together, and telling Paige the truth bringing them all closer together. But as always they tend to take up the slack from each other. Back in the pilot Elizabeth said "they'd hate us" in response to knowing the truth. Now she can see things differently. She hated the idea of the four of them becoming Americans as much as Philip hates the idea of them all becoming spies. (Again an interesting contrast of nationality vs. profession.)
Also couldn't agree more with Philip at this point not at all wanting Paige to know that other side of him. Which is another thing built up to all season. Not only does he become more and more self-loathing (Paige really *would* prefer the guy who gets arrested for loitering for a few hours), but there's even that scene in BTRD where Elizabeth wants him to "be" another persona and winds up upset when he shows it to her. It's not, I don't think, that the two of them just have different ideas about parenting (though that's part of it--Elizabeth's more about guiding/molding, Philip about supporting/letting go), but that they're both projecting different fears and focusing on different things. Elizabeth focuses on the betrayal Jared felt at not being told by his parents. Philip on the horror of the revelation.
And they're both right there. It no doubt would have been better for Jared had this come from his parents, but it wouldn't necessarily make everything better. And that's beside the whole issue of whether the kids should validate their own life choices by repeating them (Elizabeth) or redeem them by not doing that (Philip). Not easy for too people lacking in self-awareness.
Also on some level it kind of does make sense that given their different personalities and the way they've handled parenting, it would probably be less of a shock to find out about Elizabeth. Although Paige would never imagine her mother murdering anyone, she does come across as someone who wants to be intimidating and does what needs to be done. Where as Philip spends so much time projecting Harmless and Affectionate that it's a much bigger disconnect that he's, imo, often the more vicious of the two. Elizabeth's instinct has always been towards wholeness and Philip's toward compartmentalization. (Even the pilot plan would have been about that imo.)
Sistermagpie Operation Chronicle rewatch
Date: 2015-01-10 07:45 pm (UTC)Also love how of course the guy knows they're talking in code about Stan's "niece." And not filling out the registration. Stan's just crossing more and more lines...
What on earth kind of life would Jared even have had? Elizabeth talks to him like he's going to be one of them, but would the KGB really want to deal with somebody so unstable he just murdered two of their valuable agents? If I were the Centre I'd expect him to change his mind any day now. Even if Kate lived he'd soon figure out their love affair was a lie, so that life is a lie too.
Clark and Martha baby talk is also a nice parallel to the earlier scene where P&E started trying for Paige. In that scene he did what Elizabeth wanted; here he tells Martha how it's going to be. The first scene was him following orders from the Centre and E. Here I'm not sure if he would have had the freedom to have another kid--certainly Philip himself probably wouldn't want to, but there are cases of undercover guys having kids they later abandoned. But in neither scene are we getting Misha's thoughts about fatherhood, if he had any.
Also his speech about why he can't have a kid here takes on more meaning with Claudia's later revelation. His job makes it an irresponsible choice.
Jared dumping his clothes is the type of thing fans sometimes complain about as being silly, like the spies are going overboard, so I love the scene showing how these safety measures are all a good idea.
Stan and Philip are kind of alike in that they've both started imagining a life that will work (Stan with Nina, Philip with his kids having their own lives) and then the KGB walks in with new terms.
Ugh, Father Tim. Paige, stopping confiding your family business and suspicions to your pastor. You're the worst!
Philip's speech about Fred is one of the oddest ones ever. He starts off describing a guy who sounds terrible (grandiose, wants to feel like he's better than everyone else) but ultimately offers up that he kind of likes him (gutsy, smart, loner, no friends, no family...).
Philip not only brings Elizabeth to meet Fred (all those years he never met Leanne--probably only heard about Jared) but he also refers to the Russians as everyone "back home," which I think also ups the intimacy level.
Elizabeth has quite an 80s silhouette happening in this scene.
Iirc, all the "computer stuff--nobody understands it!" is pretty 80s too. Just that there was a very different level of expected comfort with technical terms. I can't imagine a guy in Stan's position saying that now. Sure he might draw the line at where his knowledge ended, but not this early.
Okay, here it's made clear that Cardinal is absolutely Fred and Oriole is Stan.
The Nina plot, too, is kind of a parallel to last year's finale, where everything personal rests on the outcome of a mission and people are hoping they'll be able to run if it doesn't.
Stan's attempt to improve things with Matthew with his VHS tape (heh--I originally wrote DVD--years away from those!) doesn't work as well as Philip's attempt to do the same with Fred. Philip did more of a study.
Is Sandra saying she's going to leave Matthew with Stan? That would really not go over well with Matthew, I'd imagine.
Elizabeth's speech about how incompetent Paige and Henry are also plays into her wanting to train Paige. As does, perhaps, Philip's response about them being more capable than she thinks. He doesn't think their upbringing has left them with no strengths and they're both right.
Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-10 08:45 pm (UTC)This show is really good at showing how these kinds of people need A LOT of trust in a person before they can confide anything. Stan smacks down Sandra's attempt to listen to his problems in the current situation just before Philip finally starts to tell something about himself to Elizabeth. (Though I suspect he might have retreated back into that shell next season if Elizabeth's allying herself with the Centre against him.)
It's so weird how Elizabeth's memory of home are so often about how nobody will help you and if they try they're just trying to trick you when...isn't Communism supposed to be...communal? I'll bet if somebody in Paige's church was sick they'd be all over it with casseroles. Her beliefs are so weirdly incoherent (realistically so, but still).
Paige says there were 200 church groups at the protest but that does not match what we saw at all. I know they couldn't afford that, but they really shouldn't have shown anything if that was the idea. It looks from what we see like Pastor Tim takes a bunch of kids up to a plant for his own private protest and then gets himself arrested with a few other guys who are his friends.
When the guy says the future of the free world rests on the numbers and symbols, Stan's got to be starting to realize he's never going to give this info up.
When Philip points out chaining yourself to an Army base fence is a good way to get yourself arrested, I feel like Paige misunderstands that in a subtle and interesting way. She thinks he's saying the guy was being stupid and she corrects him to explain that he was sacrificing himself. But Philip is really trying to tell Paige that it was a show--exactly the opposite of him and Elizabeth. Pastor Tim sacrificed nothing, got nothing done but convinced Paige he had done something.
Clark's speech about how this is "who he is" is one of those ultimate Americans speeches. But the convo with Martha is a serious one and foreshadows the problems to come for P&E. Can you be happy living a life that's not what you want?
As much as Arkady's weird line about Nina and love bothers me (does he want Stan to not give up the info??), I guess if Nina had cracked under pressure she might have told him that Stan loves her.
Paige's line about college is pretty good considering what's coming. Right now her goal is to go to college and be with normal people. Without knowing it, she's literally asking to get away from the KGB and her parents' job, have her own life. This is exactly what Elizabeth is arranging to keep from happening.
To be fair, it's not like Jared is shot through the throat. I assume it's more like in the jugular?
Jared's so pathetic about clinging to stories about his "cover" like he's an actual KGB agent. He's like Fred in that the cause doesn't matter, he just needs to believe he's getting back at his parents for lying. Like he'll be a better agent than they were.
Claudia's fooling herself here saying that they're supposed to tell Paige that she *will* join their ranks. This is where it comes back to the last ep where I thought Philip was also right in implying the kids' upbringing hadn't left them useless. Elizabeth and Claudia take it as a given that the US can't offer her a cause, when of course there'd just be many causes for her to choose from and right now she's trying some out. She's been taught her whole life she can be anything she wants because America and Freedom! Telling her *will* be in the KGB is just silly.
Iow, there's already so many different issues at play here and so many ways I can imagine both P&E and the Centre undermining their own goals with Paige, even if she does share a lot of her mother's personal qualities.
Philip and children
Date: 2015-01-11 10:05 am (UTC)Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-11 10:14 am (UTC)Agreed. I thought Elizabeth's "we know what civil disobedience means" was going in the same direction. Not that I see P & E being anti (actual) civil disobedience (when directed against the US government, of course, not their own) per se - for example, I imagine Elizabeth did respect what Gregory was doing before meeting her. But the people in the 60s civil rights movements were actually risking their lives with the bus rides and demonstrations, risked getting severely beaten up etc., whereas Pastor Tim, as you say, risks nothing at all, and achieves nothing.
Claudia's fooling herself here saying that they're supposed to tell Paige that she *will* join their ranks.
Well, to be fair, she's a) relating orders, and b) says they need to prepare her, "get her ready" first, which presumably is intended to mean "get her ideologically on board", not just by simply telling her but by convincing her of the cause. Now I still agree that the idea that Paige, who has heard nothing good about Russia all her life and who is in a major phase of teenage rebellion, should want to become a KGB agent because her parents tell her that's just grand is silly and completely unrealistic. Perhaps slightly more realistic if you assume P & E would get, say, two years from now on to indoctrinate her and then the KGB agent thing would be presented as an option, but still very unlikely.
Re: Philip and children
Date: 2015-01-11 02:57 pm (UTC)Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-11 03:04 pm (UTC)But given what we know of Claudia I wouldn't be surprised if she actually did think it was that simple, that Paige has no mind of her own and all it would take for her to be on board would be to explain the world as it really is, because obviously nobody could could see the US as standing for anything, especially not a better world. She and Elizabeth both seem to see Paige's own country as defined more by a lack of values than different values, so I could see her considering that part as a done deal. Or else more just like a test--if Paige is 'the right child' she'll react to being told she's joining the ranks with determination etc.
Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-12 12:40 am (UTC)I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 01:52 am (UTC)He's shown no problem with killing other people, including the woman in the cabin who won't have a great deal of 'I'm a KGB agent' stuff lying around for the police to find.
P&E probably have some of that, somewhere, but where? Will it be found? They also know far too much about him to be allowed to live. He knows they're not going to say anything of use to the authorities other blabbing about his spying activities if any evidence of them being KGB is found. They're not going to be executed (unlike possibly him - did the state they're in have the death penalty?) and could easily be exchanged in a spy swap = get away with killing his 'brothers'.
It's not as big a clunk as the Amador bits of the awful Safe House (s1e09) but it's as much a clunk as the blatant setup for series three is.
Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 02:21 am (UTC)Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 02:34 am (UTC)If turning them in is good, why not the 'phone service' guy or Kate?
Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 02:45 am (UTC)Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 03:25 am (UTC)From P&E's point of view, being caught and handed over to the FBI is something they've been trained for. Say nothing - apart from ruining Larrick - and sit it out. Swapped or not, they're heroes, and may even have been given misinformation to talk about if caught. Disappear, and their side will always wonder if they've turned and defected.
If their bodies are ever found, it will be after a very horrible death: were Larrick's bunch the lot that trained Central American death squads in torture techniques?
From the other perspective, if he turns them in, he's instantly the 'queer who betrayed his country'. Every single person he's worked with for years will be questioned to see what they knew about that and their sex life is looked at to see if they're LGBT too. No-one will look at him favourably. His unit will be horrified and it will be a stain on their reputation for decades. Even the FBI will be pissed that they didn't find them. (It'll probably be the end of Stan's career, but Larrick won't know that.)
Far, far better to go off somewhere in Central America and die in battle for the cause he believes in... having extracted a very personal revenge.
I need to get to bed, but didn't I suggest before the ending that he should have some KS lesions to show that he's dying and knows it?
Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 03:33 am (UTC)So really it comes down to whether you believe Larrick the character was in the end more like Stan or Philip or Elizabeth than Timoshev, as presented on the show. Which you might not, of course!
Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-12 10:39 am (UTC)...or it's also possible she really agrees with those orders (for what it's worth, it may not be a coincidence that the very first time we meet Claudia, she's observing Philip with Paige, so maybe she knew already the second generation plan was an option, just not when it would be set into motion, for either Jared or Paige); we won't know either way unless we get another scene with Claudia talking to someone neither Elizabeth or Philip on the subject.
Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 02:27 pm (UTC)Here, I am being asked to believe that Larrick thinks that "doing the right thing" is betraying something far more important to him than his country: his unit and his "brothers".
Because that's what exposing himself as a secret homosexual spy would do. At this point in time, he'd be dishonourably discharged just for saying he was attracted to men, whatever his record. To throw in having spied for the enemy, well, his unit would be torn apart looking for accomplices and would hate him for years. His highly politically embarrassing work in the illegal training camps would be exposed, and that'd be the end of those, at least on US soil.
In a couple of years' time John Anthony Walker will be revealed to have been a Soviet spy for years. Larrick would be worse: Walker just did it for the money, like any good capitalist. Walker got 25 years because of handing in the rest of his ring via a plea bargain. Larrick can give evidence against... a couple of dead people, at least a trio of people he's murdered, and a pair of Russian illegals (assuming they're discovered as such).
A few years after that, the Navy would be saying 'Yes, there was some sexual harassment at Tailhook, but thank Christ it's not as bad a scandal as the Larrick affair...'
The patriotic thing for him to do is kill them - just like he wanted to do with his previous handlers rather than turn them in, and did with someone he knew was more senior to them and knew more - and die honourably, preferably fighting the enemy.
no subject
Date: 2015-01-12 03:06 pm (UTC)I don't really have anything new to say about the episode over and above what I've already said on this comm, though, other than the fact that I viewed the Kate/Jared relationship in an interesting light after having watched the most recent season of Homeland (no more detail about that in case there are people who haven't seen that and still want to). And that I remain sorry that they didn't do more with Kate than they did: there was plenty of meat there if they'd been willing/able to sink their teeth into it.
-J
Re: Philip and children
Date: 2015-01-12 03:08 pm (UTC)-J
Re: Philip and children
Date: 2015-01-12 05:18 pm (UTC)Re: I still like my ending 'twist' better :)
Date: 2015-01-12 05:47 pm (UTC)It still seems like you're making "doing the right thing" all about saving himself and his reputation. Saying he has to continue covering things up rather than turn in the spies to the US government (which would be his official duty) because it would hurt his fellow officers more to know he was a traitor sounds like an excuse to me. Like some guy saying he has to keep sneaking around with his girlfriend because it would hurt his wife more and destroy his family to know he's cheating--maybe it's true on some level, but I don't buy he's doing it for them. Larrick didn't want to kill his previous handlers out of patriotism, he wanted to do it out of personal revenge. For him--he says--this is the right thing to do.
I honestly don't see why Larrick being gay would be such a terrible sex scandal. It's not like the Marines even have to go public with it.
Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-12 06:01 pm (UTC)Which opens up even more reasons for why she may have played that scene the way she did. I mean, beyond even not showing any doubts if she had them, she's become a bit more confiding to P&E (especially E) this season, but also would probably have ideas about the best way to address them both. So a lot of the things she said would have been planned out to address both of them, probably knowing that Philip would be the harder sell.
Re: Sistermagpie Echo rewatch
Date: 2015-01-12 09:29 pm (UTC)Operation Chronicle random thoughts
Date: 2015-01-13 04:48 pm (UTC)So when Paige puts down the phone she's deliberately doing it silently so Philip will think she might still be listening? That seems like she's just risking getting in more trouble.
Even if he wants to help the KGB Jared seems really not happy to have it intruding on his walk to school. And I guess he's found out that his social worker was someone else all along like his parents.
Idk if Jared saw some kind of opposition between Kate and his parents within the KGB but now Kate's vanished and he's with someone associated with his parents .. he does seem to warm up to Elizabeth though after a bit
I don't really get how Larrick got that tracker on Jared. Before he went to Nicaragua? or maybe Kate put it there originally and he stole the receiver from her?
Arkady is such a Bond villain in that scene with Stan
Tim is also getting a really different view of P&E than they usually try to put across -- that they're potentially violent, maybe not monogamous, maybe liars -- he doesn't seem like an immediate danger but considering how much effort they put into seeming normal it can't be something they'd be happy about
Re: Operation Chronicle random thoughts
Date: 2015-01-13 04:57 pm (UTC)I get the impression that Jared was really focused on his personal relationship with Kate and saw her as "the one" who was with him against the world. Anybody associated with his parents would be suspect, and the KGB would only be important as part of his fantasy about validating him as the kind of hero he and Kate were supposed to be when they changed the world.
I so love Arkady in his scenes here. He's playing the heavy. If we didn't know him we'd think he really was a Bond villain--just goes to show how much this stuff matters!
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 04:50 am (UTC)Philip's story, funnily enough, is very spy related. He's got something he needs to get from one part of the city to the other, he's paying attention to his surroundings and notes that he's picked up a tail, one that he recognizes, and the first step in his plan is to double back.
If there was ever any doubt that spies like Philip are born not made...this story supports it!
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 07:46 am (UTC)Jared revelations
Date: 2015-01-15 09:09 am (UTC)I also don't get the Centre's plan to go behind E&L's backs to recruit Jared. If his parents aren't in on it what's the advantage of recruiting him over any other random 17-yr-old? Was Kate going to keep up the secret fake relationship for the 5+ years it might take him to graduate college and get in to the FBI/CIA or the 20 years to get to Stan's level? That seems like plenty of time for him to grow up and start suspecting that relationship wasn't real either, and be even more angry.
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 11:56 am (UTC)-J
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 12:52 pm (UTC)With Philip, I think traditional expectations of masculinity are a bit of an issue for him now and then - hence his apologizing to Paige for not challenging the crep at the mall in the pilot, for example, or the instinct to storm off and go after Elizabeth's abusive mark in 1.03 with the "that's what husbands do" justification, which she cuts short with "you're not my daddy" - but not to the same degree, and at any rate both what he actually does (being a spy) and his primary alias (suburban dad and husband) are society sanctioned masculine roles. But another thing that fascinates me about his childhood story is that it requires a child that's both self reliant and ready to think outside the box already. He doesn't mention ever seeking adult help or even just adult counsel. Whatever he did when he doubled back, I don't think it involved this, either. So Mischa must have been a boy who sees the world around him as at the least unhelpful and in this case actively dangerous.
Re: Jared revelations
Date: 2015-01-15 12:59 pm (UTC)Actually until we hear otherwise, that's my headcanon for Mischa and Irina, not least because Irina's so differing claims about her past and because she's an agent in the present. I.e. I think Irina was a recruiter, and once Mischa was on board enough, she was withdrawn. According to what Philip said, he thought they had broken up because she had met someone else while he was "at the academy".
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 05:29 pm (UTC)Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 05:37 pm (UTC)Yes, Philip and Elizabeth both here are in a situation where it wouldn't be out of the question to seek out adult help, but neither brings it up. Elizabeth specifically says nobody helped her, and Philip in telling the story takes it as a given that if he was the one getting jumped and he was the one with the milk, he had to take care of it. (Elizabeth isolation here as usual seems to be slightly different than Philip's in that she also has many memories of her mother guiding her.)
But I also thought, as you said here, that there's a sense of the outside world and other people as at best unhelpful and at worst enemies, and that seems to be the same attitude he mostly has now, being very careful about who's okay and always on the lookout for threats.
Re: Stealth
Date: 2015-01-15 05:41 pm (UTC)It just makes me think again how Philip so often seems like the one who is the can long for a normal life, yet his basic personality hints more at the idea that this is actually who he is.
Re: Jared revelations
Date: 2015-01-15 06:39 pm (UTC)But why would a kid indoctrinated since birth get this kind of time and effort? I mean, I *can* imagine a situation where a person has some advantage their home Intelligence Agency wants so much they'll put in that kind of effort, but a poor kid from Siberia wouldn't have anything like that. I'd think he'd just be approached openly like any other university student with raw potential. Also I guess it maybe seems just so risky to be drawing him in with that for the Illegals program where with Elizabeth Zhukov even specifically says they wanted her for her commitment.
Jared's being recruited to be a traitor, but Philip would just be recruited to work in legitimate Intelligence.
Re: Jared revelations
Date: 2015-01-19 09:43 pm (UTC)I should probably just treat it like I do Mischa/Irina and not think about it too much.