theamericans | Promo discussion: Episode 2x06

When you say it's revealing the kind of person he is in a way that the two of them aren't used to, do you mean the kind of person who can be aggressive in bed, or the kind of person who is different people in one?

I almost wonder how Philip would approach trying to bring a Clark aspect into Philip. Like does he use Clark a little to get into the thing, like roleplay? (I kind of like the idea of Elizabeth instinctively wanting to do all of his personas like she's marking her territory) Does he just try to be more aggressive as himself? Because that could potentially get into issues about why he doesn't immediately feel comfortable doing that.

Like (and I'm curious to see how it plays out) my theory would be it might be weirder for Philip to try to roleplay as "Clark" while making love to Elizabeth simply because it mixes up worlds it would seem the multiple personalities are intended to keep separate. Like I would think doing something as "Clark" or "Dave" or whatever would make it easier to simply get out of that head when you get back in the car instead of feeling guilty over it if you had to kill someone or do something else potentially mentally unpleasant. When Philip and Elizabeth are together, it's the most "real" they are with anyone on an emotional level and I could imagine it feeling weird to have to pretend on a different level while doing it.

Plus, to what degree would Elizabeth even *want* him to be Clark? Does he need to keep on the wig and glasses? Start off in a nerdy sweater? Just do the voice? Or does she just want to feel like there's nothing that's private between Philip and another woman that they don't do, making the circles of intimacy reversed? The initial thought I had was that it was both about righting that "who's really on the inside" emotional aspect of it, and also that the idea of Philip being unreserved and kind of freely sexual with her was probably a turn-on. I would imagine in the same way that he tends to be very private and hold back giving us glimpses at "the real man" (or close to it, ha ha) in general, the same thing may carry over into the bedroom and she may like the idea of seeing a very private glimpse of him where he lets the walls down and abandons caution.

Yeah, see I assume that what she really means is just--be an animal/make me yours. She doesn't really have an attraction to Clark but she uses that to bring up the subject without having to say that outright. It lets her be teasing him a little. But then I just laugh thinking of Philip being like...okay, um, well I know how I get into this with Martha but now I feel really self-conscious.

Maybe he'll work on it in private and figure out a way to work it in organically.

Oh yeah, I agree she's using it as an excuse to even bring it up. I wonder how self-conscious Philip would be if she got to a place where she pushed a little and it became clear that she really wanted that from him. Because I think their sexual relationship has been screwed up in a lot of ways over the years, but they've been strong enough to get past separation, betrayal of trust, infidelity on both sides, one of them potentially dying or being captured... I think Philip could get into it, particularly if Elizabeth were encouraging him as they went along and he knew it was mutually being enjoyed.

Yeah, the fun part of it is that on the one hand she would have to be encouraging, but otoh it's all about him seeming like he's in control. So it might actually take a little bit of trial and error and they might actually even need to talk about it a little because this isn't just trying something new, it's trying something that in the past would have been offlimits for very good reason.

It's really great when you think of how often male sexual aggression has been portrayed with Elizabeth as at best pathetic and at worst rape, but now she can actually enjoy it in this relationship.

Yes, it's a great sign of how much trust she has in this relationship and a huge step personally for her that she's even considering she might want to go there. It's rewarding to watch her have these personal revelations over the past few episodes about how she's really been all these years and to see her making efforts to change. I could even see it in Elizabeth's head not so much that she wants to be completely dominated during sex, as in not in control at all, but just that she would be giving him her trust and showing him she really wants him to let go and be free to be more aggressive with her. It could very well be a mutual "animal-like" thing too where they both get to explore things getting a little wilder and it's a signal to Philip that they're getting to a more comfortable place both with each other and her trust-wise in a sexual relationship where she feels like she can play around with it a little more and find out what she really does *like* in bed without that being the loaded topic it's always been. Or not as loaded, at least. I just saw it all as a great sign, and a really healthy step for her, and potentially for both of them if it can stop being attached to "Clark" but rather what Elizabeth and Philip want to try in bed.

Like (and I'm curious to see how it plays out) my theory would be it might be weirder for Philip to try to roleplay as "Clark" while making love to Elizabeth simply because it mixes up worlds it would seem the multiple personalities are intended to keep separate.

I've been thinking about how to phrase my response to Magpie's question about what I meant, but this pretty much nails it. Even if he ultimately finds the idea exciting (and he very well might!), it doesn't surprise me at all to see that his first response to the notion of having sex with Elizabeth as Clark would be shock and discomfort.

Unlike the two of you, though, I'm actually reading her suggestion (especially given the playful way she works it into a discussion that starts out being about Martha) as "you know, we could actually roleplay this--come on, let's just try it and see what happens." Which exploded my brain when it occurred to me as I first watched the scene, and then I went...huh, no, I guess I could actually see that. :) I mean, they've kind of both had to learn to be sexually adventurous to do their jobs, and roleplay is something they're both really, really good at. It's really not at all surprising that they'd want to (at least sometimes) start playing with that a little with each other. Although also not surprising that it would be more immediately exciting to Elizabeth than to Philip, who roleplays differently from the way she does and therefore would almost certainly have more reservations about it.

-J

I could see it working either way, honestly. My initial thought about it being more about wanting Philip but it being freer was more thinking that was kind of the next natural step for them to take sexually, but you're right that they do a lot of roleplay, which would make it both fun but also a little loaded.

Philip might even, on some level, ultimately enjoy it more in a way because it speaks to the natural way he sort of is--fluid in different personalities--I just think it could be emotionally trickier if they try to use one of his personalities that he specifically uses to keep things separate while spying in a psychological sense. Like Elizabeth would potentially enjoy more aggression from him in bed, but would probably be triggered and unhappy if they did something that came too close to reenacting the rape. Similarly, he might like getting to slip into another personality for fun sometimes, but it would need to come with him having some control over how that was chosen so it doesn't get into one that makes him uncomfortable then or later in the way it screws with things in his head. If that makes any sense...

Philip might even, on some level, ultimately enjoy it more in a way because it speaks to the natural way he sort of is--fluid in different personalities--I just think it could be emotionally trickier if they try to use one of his personalities that he specifically uses to keep things separate while spying in a psychological sense.

Yes, yes, yes! This is exactly the sort of thing I meant when I said it could be revealing of the kind of person he is in a way that the two of them aren't used to.

I also agree with you that he would probably ultimately find it hugely exciting if he can uncouple it from all the levels of discomfort the very idea would bring up. Because for him, I really do think that sort of roleplay would be more than just being a side entrance to having rougher sex with his wife. It would be having sex with someone his Philip self both loves and finds very sexually attractive, but as what amounts to an entirely different person. That would access all sorts of aspects of his malleability that don't usually enter into his relationship with Elizabeth at all. And I think that would probably be an enormous turnon for him, but that it will take some doing to get to the turnon under all the discomfort.

Like Elizabeth would potentially enjoy more aggression from him in bed, but would probably be triggered and unhappy if they did something that came too close to reenacting the rape.

I actually think she's not worried about that at all. She seems very firmly in control of the situation as she brings it up, and not at all tentative about it. She's even kind of baiting him, challenging him (which is both hilarious and delightful). I definitely think that's one of the things he is thinking about, though, and one of the huge aspects of his discomfort.

Seriously, though, every time I think about this scene at all, one track of my brain is still stuck on I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING THERE. Because I CAN'T. :) My god, this show. How does this show even exist?

-J

Like Elizabeth would potentially enjoy more aggression from him in bed, but would probably be triggered and unhappy if they did something that came too close to reenacting the rape.

I actually think she's not worried about that at all. She seems very firmly in control of the situation as she brings it up, and not at all tentative about it. She's even kind of baiting him, challenging him (which is both hilarious and delightful). I definitely think that's one of the things he is thinking about, though, and one of the huge aspects of his discomfort.

I think I didn't explain what I meant very well. I don't think Elizabeth is actively worried about that at all right now, or even thinking about it. But, for example, if Philip got on top of her in the same position Timoshev did, twisted an arm behind her back, etc, there's a point at which it could become too close to it and that would trigger her, whereas just more aggression in bed would be a potentially exciting thing.

And I think the same is true with Philip. There's an aspect of using other personalities in bed that I think would be a similar turn-on for him, but I feel like in the same way some things could trigger Elizabeth if they got too close to it, there's the potential some things could trigger Philip in a similar way in using certain personalities--either in bed, or later. Elizabeth in the kitchen conversation seemed at ease and playful. Philip seemed the exact opposite, which is why I feel like he's having sort of a mini freak-out on the inside. It's a little even like the kitchen scene from the pilot where he's just kissing her neck suggesting they try this thing and it's no big deal to him, but to her it's layered with all these other things that freak her out and he doesn't really understand why.

I was thinking about this and katiac's comment and I think one of the fun things about it is exactly what Elizabeth says when Philip asks her if she's kidding: I don't know. I don't know if she yet has anything specific in mind--she's probably intrigued by roleplaying with Clark just because that's the thing she was confronted with. Who is this Clark guy? What do you do when you're him? How are you different? It's a really intriguing premise!

But she probably doesn't have it all worked out in her head yet. This was her preliminary raising of the subject. Because she'd probably also be excited by Philip just doing something different as Philip. (And how great is it that they're having the conversation while they do the dishes together and Philip's the one with the dishtowel and glass in hand.)

But then, they're both Philip. And they're probably more "both Philip" to her than they are to him, you know? It's possible, like we've said before, that to her doing this roleplay would be Philip projecting certain qualities like she does when she's doing this. He'd still be himself, but acting a certain way. It's Philip acting the way he would act if he was shy or a fussbudget.

Where as for Philip Elizabeth's question about "would Clark ever be unfaithful?" might be more to the point because if he was going to "be" Clark with Elizabeth he'd actually be being Clark and that would require a more fully realized scenario (and would probably bring up some issues when he went back to be Clark with Martha having been unfaithful). It would almost be even more wonderfully twisted if he did it and then was guilty about it with Martha. I just love how "I don't now what you think he's like..." sounding almost a little fussbudgety. He's not speaking as Clark or anything but the words can't help but make me imagine Philip kind of getting between Clark and Elizabeth almost to protect him from her like he's Philip's colleague.

To me that "I don't know what you think he's like," was SO great because it was uptight and defensive and nervous and it was so obvious he didn't like her poking around in there and more, wasn't really prepared for it. Like they've made some teasing comments before such as the, "Congratulations," at the fake wedding, but this is really delving into it and the specifics in a way they just don't do usually. Like even in the kitchen scene back in "A Little Night Music" he asks, "Are you in the middle with Brad?" which is requesting no more information than she needs to give him. And some of that is probably due to how many times they've run a honey trap... it's just a routine conversation by this point, but there's definite tension in the way Elizabeth keeps flirtatiously pressing Philip and he's sighing and dropping his hands with a thump.

Where as for Philip Elizabeth's question about "would Clark ever be unfaithful?" might be more to the point because if he was going to "be" Clark with Elizabeth he'd actually be being Clark and that would require a more fully realized scenario (and would probably bring up some issues when he went back to be Clark with Martha having been unfaithful).

EXACTLY. It would be something that he couldn't undo, and couldn't pretend hadn't happened when he's with Martha later. It would become a piece of Clark and what he'd done, and he'd have to incorporate that. It would be emotionally hugely complex for him in ways I think Elizabeth wouldn't fully understand.

But maybe...this is going to sound kind of horrible, but...maybe that wouldn't ultimately matter? I mean, he's obviously willing to have Clark do hurtful things to Martha when the situation calls for it; this would just be another level of that. And as far as Martha's concerned, it of course wouldn't be any different from him having sex with her as Philip in terms of the degree to which she'd perceive it as cheating.

-J

Yeah, that's exactly how I thought he would see it. Clark would somehow meet Elizabeth--maybe Philip knows that Clark's being honeytrapped. I mean...the situation almost writes itself. Because Clark isn't a spy, he's a pencil-pusher--the very type that Elizabeth would make mince meat of. And once in bed Clark would be thrilled to get all wild animal with her!

But he'd bring that back to Martha. Maybe he'd just be guilty. Maybe he'd even have to confess he met some woman who came onto him. Maybe he wouldn't confess that he slept with her, but he might say he didn't and felt guilty about it anyway because he was tempted and he loves Martha, which would give Martha a chance to be the worldly one and love her rule-following husband for being so earnest and true.

But the possibilities with Philip for this are just endless.

Clark would somehow meet Elizabeth--maybe Philip knows that Clark's being honeytrapped. I mean...the situation almost writes itself. Because Clark isn't a spy, he's a pencil-pusher--the very type that Elizabeth would make mince meat of. And once in bed Clark would be thrilled to get all wild animal with her!

That scenario would actually kind of work because it also gives Philip a psychological out if they're both roleplaying and it's not just him. Like it isn't just him acting like "Clark" while Elizabeth is just Elizabeth, but both of them playing something out, and with "Clark" being the victim of a honeytrap, it rather takes some of the blame off him as well.

So long until Wednesday!

But maybe...this is going to sound kind of horrible, but...maybe that wouldn't ultimately matter? I mean, he's obviously willing to have Clark do hurtful things to Martha when the situation calls for it; this would just be another level of that. And as far as Martha's concerned, it of course wouldn't be any different from him having sex with her as Philip in terms of the degree to which she'd perceive it as cheating.

No, I don't think it's horrible because really I don't think it enters into his thinking in a huge way. On the grand scale of what he's doing to Martha, that's kind of small time, you know? But at the same time, since one/the point of "Clark" psychologically is to make spy work bearable/possible for Philip, dragging that other piece into it would have to be something that has positives that vastly outweigh the negatives that would come with it, which is why I kind of wonder if they'll try something more in the middle first (Philip using some of the qualities Elizabeth was turned on by in what she heard about "Clark" and allowing her to get some of what she wants while he also gets to protect some of what he wants.) And I could see them roleplaying like in one of the personalities that isn't so actively hurting someone (Scott, for example), or one of her random black leather-clad girls at the bar, it just seems messy to go there straight off with Clark.

Also I imagine there's got to be different levels of separation between Philip and Clark. I almost want to use the terms Doylist and Watsonian here.

It's from the Doylist perspective that Clark is doing horrible things to Martha. That's what Philip would see when he looked at the situation as Philip, who is controlling what Clark does.

But the Watsonian perspective--Clark's perspective--is different. From his pov he's a government agent who's secretly married this woman and just loves her and wants to be with her and is worried they'll get caught. When Martha says she's thinking of applying for a job in a non-espionage department, Philip is alarmed because it will make her useless. So he directs Clark to make sure she stays where she is.

That then gets translated into a different motivation for Clark--doesn't Martha want to be in a more important department? I mean, Clark takes his job so seriously and part of his attraction to Martha, although he wouldn't want her to know this, is that she's doing Important Work. So he genuinely does feel like she's selling herself short if she's just making more money in a department that doesn't excite him as much.

But this is more difficult if Clark's having an affair, because now it's reversed. Philip doesn't really want Clark to be bothered by it at all, but Clark knows he had an affair and has to deal with it as cheating on Martha in ways Philip wasn't cheating.

Iow, currently Clark isn't doing anything bad to Martha, Philip is. But if Clark cheated on her Clark would be hurting her.

Yeah, this is exactly how I see it too (or how I see him seeing it).

That said, though, I do think he'd manage to find a way around (or more likely, through) the convolutedness of this. I just don't see him turning her down on this, and like Katia, I think it could be tremendously exciting to him in the end.

-J

Edited (I actually can spell my native language! *g*) 2014-03-30 16:10 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would be OOC for him to both not agree to it and agree to it right away. It's a tricky area so he's not going to be like her and just think of it as a fun game. But he's not totally against it in the scene we see. He just has to come around to it. His first response is always going to be kneejerk and defensive but if they can figure out a way he'd be up for it, surely.

Plus it's again a great way to advance the way they're both moving this season. She's exploring how she feels about him and sex etc. He's considering figuring out who he is as a whole person instead of separate people.

Promo discussion: Episode 2x06

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