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theamericans2014-03-21 03:56 pm
sistermagpie) wrote in theamericans2014-03-21 03:56 pm
Entry tags:
Who Watches the Watchers
Someone on TWOP posted this quote from the book, saying it reminded them of Philip when they read it:
In the book Everyday Stalinism, the author described the ultimate Soviet as being able to say one belief, secretly believe in another, and act in ways that don't support either of these beliefs.
I thought that was a fascinating quote because so often on the show it's tempting to project ideas of what American vs. Russian or Soviet means, yet any culture actually looks differently on different people. Philip and Elizabeth presumably both grew up being taught that certain beliefs were correct, and that there were consequences for not sharing those beliefs. Elizabeth internalized those beliefs, proudly states them whenever possible and feels she should be passing them on to others. Philip seems to often instinctively avoid talking about his beliefs, preferring to listen to others or be less definitive...
We know that Elizabeth felt it was her duty to report her concerns about what Philip's true beliefs might be to her superiors, and that Philip considered this a betrayal of trust, as he felt that Elizabeth as his partner/wife was supposed to be a person he could safely relax around. (And it seems like that's basically all he was doing was relaxing--he wasn't actually expressing ideas that were explicitly anti-Soviet.)
I don't feel like I know enough at all about how society would have worked for them to say how it manifests in their personalities, but do people have thoughts about this aspect of their characters?
It has come up explicitly in the show with the fight in "Trust Me" about Elizabeth's reports on Philip. Elizabeth herself felt more comfortable confiding her fears about her assignment and her readiness for it to Gregory than to Philip--is this just because she felt he understood her because of his shared passion about the cause, or did some niggling fear of being reported actually come into it? Gregory is "safer" in more ways than one.
I'm also now remembering Leanne's exact response to Elizabeth's confession that she never wanted kids to not "tell the Center that." Leanne then confides her own secret to Elizabeth, saying she feels she can tell her anything--they both have something on the other in that scene.
Twice that I can think of I've gotten the impression that Philip and Elizabeth have done something to send a message because they know they're being watched. In Elizabeth's case it's explicit, when she tells Grannie to show Moscow "her face" to show how she feels about the scam in "Trust Me." With Philip it's more ambiguous (what a shock), but I wondered if he suspected Irina was testing him and expected his actions (not running away with her but not telling on her) would be noted by the Center. No idea if that's correct that he was intentionally sending a message, but he is acting in a way that supports neither the belief that Irina must be punished for traitorous thoughts--he doesn't tell on her or tell her her own doubts are wrong--nor the belief that Irina is right about wanting to run away--he doesn't go with her or express a desire to go with her. He avoids either encouraging or discouraging her own doubts.
We know Robert had a secret wife and child that he managed to hide, and that he felt he had to hide them from Philip to do that. Gregory brought this up to implicitly make the point that this meant Robert wasn't really his friend in order to say that Elizabeth also didn't consider him a friend, because she confided in Gregory. But in fact Elizabeth had good reason, perhaps, to consider Philip a dangerous person to confide in since she herself was reporting on him and considered that standard procedure.
In In Control Philip illustrates the difference between the two societies by reminding Elizabeth that when *their* leaders died--in the USSR--it was kept secret for 2 weeks while in the US Reagan's true condition was on the news asap.
Heh--maybe I'm going overboard here now,but I'm now also remembering Philip when he was suggesting defection to Elizabeth. This had to be easily the most dangerous thing either of them has ever suggested to the other, and probably only worked for that reason because it was in the pilot and we weren't yet conditioned to think about how dangerous it could be. (Had we known that Elizabeth was already informing on the guy it might have seemed like a death wish.) Anyway, I was thinking about how Philip tries to sell Elizabeth on this being the only safe option for the kids, and when Elizabeth points out that the last guy who tried it was now hog-tied in their trunk, Philip contemptuously says that Timoshev was stupid--he gave speeches. I.e., the trick to getting away with defection is keeping your head down and your mouth shut. Despite suggesting defection, he tried to avoid the political implications--he wasn't declaring for America, he just needed a kid-friendly retirement plan. Elizabeth, naturally, responded by declaring herself loyal to Russia and could therefore never defect.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess it just seemed like an aspect of Philip and Elizabeth's behavior that would probably be second nature to them that we don't usually isolate. Like, both Philip and Elizabeth already have personal and professional reasons for keeping their feelings hidden, but this is almost a third layer on top of that that would get mixed up with it.
In the book Everyday Stalinism, the author described the ultimate Soviet as being able to say one belief, secretly believe in another, and act in ways that don't support either of these beliefs.
I thought that was a fascinating quote because so often on the show it's tempting to project ideas of what American vs. Russian or Soviet means, yet any culture actually looks differently on different people. Philip and Elizabeth presumably both grew up being taught that certain beliefs were correct, and that there were consequences for not sharing those beliefs. Elizabeth internalized those beliefs, proudly states them whenever possible and feels she should be passing them on to others. Philip seems to often instinctively avoid talking about his beliefs, preferring to listen to others or be less definitive...
We know that Elizabeth felt it was her duty to report her concerns about what Philip's true beliefs might be to her superiors, and that Philip considered this a betrayal of trust, as he felt that Elizabeth as his partner/wife was supposed to be a person he could safely relax around. (And it seems like that's basically all he was doing was relaxing--he wasn't actually expressing ideas that were explicitly anti-Soviet.)
I don't feel like I know enough at all about how society would have worked for them to say how it manifests in their personalities, but do people have thoughts about this aspect of their characters?
It has come up explicitly in the show with the fight in "Trust Me" about Elizabeth's reports on Philip. Elizabeth herself felt more comfortable confiding her fears about her assignment and her readiness for it to Gregory than to Philip--is this just because she felt he understood her because of his shared passion about the cause, or did some niggling fear of being reported actually come into it? Gregory is "safer" in more ways than one.
I'm also now remembering Leanne's exact response to Elizabeth's confession that she never wanted kids to not "tell the Center that." Leanne then confides her own secret to Elizabeth, saying she feels she can tell her anything--they both have something on the other in that scene.
Twice that I can think of I've gotten the impression that Philip and Elizabeth have done something to send a message because they know they're being watched. In Elizabeth's case it's explicit, when she tells Grannie to show Moscow "her face" to show how she feels about the scam in "Trust Me." With Philip it's more ambiguous (what a shock), but I wondered if he suspected Irina was testing him and expected his actions (not running away with her but not telling on her) would be noted by the Center. No idea if that's correct that he was intentionally sending a message, but he is acting in a way that supports neither the belief that Irina must be punished for traitorous thoughts--he doesn't tell on her or tell her her own doubts are wrong--nor the belief that Irina is right about wanting to run away--he doesn't go with her or express a desire to go with her. He avoids either encouraging or discouraging her own doubts.
We know Robert had a secret wife and child that he managed to hide, and that he felt he had to hide them from Philip to do that. Gregory brought this up to implicitly make the point that this meant Robert wasn't really his friend in order to say that Elizabeth also didn't consider him a friend, because she confided in Gregory. But in fact Elizabeth had good reason, perhaps, to consider Philip a dangerous person to confide in since she herself was reporting on him and considered that standard procedure.
In In Control Philip illustrates the difference between the two societies by reminding Elizabeth that when *their* leaders died--in the USSR--it was kept secret for 2 weeks while in the US Reagan's true condition was on the news asap.
Heh--maybe I'm going overboard here now,but I'm now also remembering Philip when he was suggesting defection to Elizabeth. This had to be easily the most dangerous thing either of them has ever suggested to the other, and probably only worked for that reason because it was in the pilot and we weren't yet conditioned to think about how dangerous it could be. (Had we known that Elizabeth was already informing on the guy it might have seemed like a death wish.) Anyway, I was thinking about how Philip tries to sell Elizabeth on this being the only safe option for the kids, and when Elizabeth points out that the last guy who tried it was now hog-tied in their trunk, Philip contemptuously says that Timoshev was stupid--he gave speeches. I.e., the trick to getting away with defection is keeping your head down and your mouth shut. Despite suggesting defection, he tried to avoid the political implications--he wasn't declaring for America, he just needed a kid-friendly retirement plan. Elizabeth, naturally, responded by declaring herself loyal to Russia and could therefore never defect.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I guess it just seemed like an aspect of Philip and Elizabeth's behavior that would probably be second nature to them that we don't usually isolate. Like, both Philip and Elizabeth already have personal and professional reasons for keeping their feelings hidden, but this is almost a third layer on top of that that would get mixed up with it.