Episode discussion post: "Echo"

[jae]

Aired:
21 May 2014 in the U.S. and Canada
25 May 2014 in Israel
7 June 2014 in the UK

This is a discussion post for episode 213 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season two, episode thirteen.)

Original promo trailer

"The Americans Season 2 Episode 13 Promo - Echo [HD] The Americans 2x13 Promo" (Watch on YouTube)

Episode recaps

From Grantland
From Time
From the Washington Post
From Rolling Stone
From the AV Club
From Hitfix
From IGN
From the Huffington Post: Karen Fratti, Maureen Ryan
From Vulture
From Variety
From the Tampa Bay Times
From Sound on Sight
From Collider
From Paste Magazine
From Gawker
From the Cloture Club
From tv.com
From tvrage.com
From Headline Planet
From spoilertv.com (in French)
From TV Ate My Wardrobe
From GAMbIT Magazine
From showratings.tv
From Comments Enabled
From Boob Tube Dude
From Unreality Primetime (UK)

Comments

Paige's potential interest in working for the KGB

[jae]

I can't imagine the KGB would be so stupid as to put themselves in that position. We've seen them vet potential agents for recruitment on the show and then back off if there was found to be no way in; there's no reason to think they'd be careless enough to approach Paige in the first place unless she had been so thoroughly prepared in advance that they knew for sure she would be recruitable.

-J

Re: Paige's potential interest in working for the KGB

[sistermagpie]

To be fair, Claudia does imply doing exactly this when she tells P&E to basically tell Paige who they really are first, then get her ready, and then tell her she'll be working for them. It's a really silly way of putting it that makes no sense.

Claudia's speech at the end

[jae]

These were Claudia's exact words on that:

What happened with Jared was a tragedy. Last year the Center started a program to develop officers they're calling second-generation illegals. You do tremendous work, but your cover would never hold up to the type of background investigation required to join the CIA or the FBI. However, one of your children, born to an American citizen, would pass one of these investigations. The Center asked Emmett and Leanne to bring Jared into the fold. [...] The Center, they want Paige to be next. [...] Those are your orders. First, soon, you need to tell her who you really are, who she really is. Get her ready. Then develop her until the time is ready for you to tell her that she will join our ranks.

I don't see her saying that Philip and Elizabeth are being asked to recruit her, just to help by doing the prep work of first telling her that they are spies, and then, over time, laying the groundwork for her to eventually be recruited. She's not specifying that it will be them who will be asked to recruit her, or run her (and I can't imagine that's what she meant).

-J

Re: Claudia's speech at the end

[lovingboth]

The second Paige knows that they're spies, she can ruin them by telling someone. They know she tells Pastor Tim stuff. They also know she's often very annoyed at them. They also know that all she has to do to get them in deep shit - to get out of there as she said to Henry - is run across the road and tell Stan.

They've just seen that Jared was prepared to murder his family. There have been 'I hate you' times when Paige would certainly have been willing to turn them in. She would probably regret doing so later, but get her in the right mood and she'd do it..

.. and yet they'd tell her because they were told to? Nah.

It'd also be stupid to tell them to do so. What we're being asked to believe is that someone in the KGB thinks its worth risking one of their surviving and effective pairs of illegals now in the hope that, seven or more years down the line, their daughter might be able to join the FBI or CIA.

Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[jae]

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, Philip and Elizabeth aren't idiots, and there's no chance they'd tell Paige--or anyone--their secrets unless they could be something close to absolutely sure they could trust that person not to betray them. You might scoff at that and say that risk is never worth taking, but if you say that, then what you're saying is that their job isn't ever a risk worth taking. Because every single person involved with the KGB who knows where they live and what they really look like could betray them if they wanted to--Claudia, Arkady, Nina, or on the American side, people like Gregory. Any one of those agents could betray them. Part of the spy game has to be calculating the risks of divulging secrets and being able to figure out when those risks are minor enough to take them. Otherwise their work amounts to nothing but hiding in the dark and trying to stay alive.

For that matter, yes I believe that someone in the KGB could think that's worth it, because it really happened, in real life, to real people. What part of that isn't clear? Questioning whether or not that's possible is like questioning whether space flight is possible. There are certainly things about the show that don't reflect real history, but this isn't one of them.

-J

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[lovingboth]

The number of KGB people who know their secrets is very low. Even Oleg had to pull strings to sufficient clearance. If you can't trust them, you give up now, because they're the ones ordering you about.

Their assets know as much as they are told or, in the case of Larrick, have the skills to find out. It is indeed a risk: Annelise is not happy at the moment, for example, and we all know Martha is another one who could go very wrong. What makes the risk worth taking is that they have benefits now, and there will be a cost to them if they say what they know.

Telling Paige has zero benefit now - she's merely a long-term bet - and there's no big cost to her if she turns her valuable parents in. (She loses her parents, but she already wants rid of them and, in this case, has just discovered that they were even worse than she thought. She's not going to prison or losing her job or... She'd probably become a celebrity.)

If you're sensible and you want a 2ndGen programme, you start with the less valuable illegals somewhere in the Midwest, or run that adoption agency, or honeytrap some US servicemen in West Germany into marrying and naturalising an agent and having (US) kids with her, leaving them with her while he's off on duty ("Your father thinks murdering peasants in Central America is more important than being with you"), or...

You don't start with the kids of your most valuable illegals, because the risk analysis is too unfavourable. They are one teenage tantrum away from being lost forever. As we and they have seen.

I am prepared to believe that someone is not being sensible :)

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Paige wants to be rid of her parents at all. She can complain about wanting to get rid of them because she's completely secure of them. Of course she might snap like Jared did, but so could kids who were adopted.

Also, I don't know if they have Illegals in the midwest. The show even said they didn't have much of a presence in California, much less Indiana.

I'm not sure why the orphanage idea is so much better. Why are American orphans suddenly less likely to turn in their parents than biological children?

Mostly what it comes down to is that this is what actually happened. No phantom adoption agencies or starter Illegals or kids raised outside the US with technical citizenship, just kids of Illegals brought into the fold when they're, I believe, teenagers. I think it just comes down to the dynamics between the people involved.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[(Anonymous)]

Why would they tell her now, as Claudia has suggested? If the KGB is not ready to actively recruit her at this moment, she would become a big risk by knowing her parents' story.

Claudia's comment about telling her now and then getting her 'ready' to be recruited suggests that Paige would welcome the knowledge that her parents were spies and that she had been lied to for her entire life. Not to mention that her patriotic loyalties were opposite to her parents.

This doesn't make sense to me.

CA

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[sistermagpie]

Nor to me. It's very strange for her to act like that's even the first step when that seems to be the biggest trauma of all--and probably the thing that sent Jared over the edge.

Why would they tell her before they recruit her?

[jae]

Maybe (and this is complete speculation, mind--this is one area that we simply don't know enough to do anything more than guess) that's the point, though? Like, it makes sense to me that Paige would have to adjust psychologically to the news of what her parents do and who they are before the KGB could even consider approaching her with a job offer. And so it makes sense that they would have to tell her years before she's old enough to be recruited.

-J

Re: Why would they tell her before they recruit her?

[sistermagpie]

That part I understand. What's weird is how Claudia seemed to act like there was no period or method of testing out how safe it was to do this. As you've said in other comments there's plenty of potential assets they assess before approaching. Claudia seemed to act like this was a given with Paige, that there was no possibility of her parents saying 'not for years at least' or just 'she's dangerous.' Many 14 year olds would be for many reasons.

And that seems especially dangerous when you consider how badly they played Jared. We don't know how that went down but it seems like that, too, started with the revelation, which they let him stew in, and then tried to soothe with a love affair that led him to the cause. But Jared never really became loyal to the cause. He said he did, but his main actions as an "agent" were to murder two if the KGB's most valuable mid-mission. Saving P&E was great, but also went along with his personal desires at that point. So the fact that they still seem cavalier about the most traumatic aspect is troubling.

Re: Why would they tell her before they recruit her?

[jae]

*nods* It's actually quite possible that the real-life programme along these lines (like I said, we just don't know, so this just one possibility) was started and then eventually cut short because it wasn't working. This would certainly be consistent with that--and I wonder if that's where the show is going to take that storyline. Plenty of room for tragedy there, which would be right up these writers' alley!

-J

Re: Why would they tell her before they recruit her?

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I think like I've said too that the main thing this show really thinks is important--thank goodness--is that individuals all have very complex motivations that are unique to them. There's a lot of things about Paige that signal she'd be a good fit for the program--she has her mother's longing for a larger purpose and her mother's ability to believe a cause in her heart in ways that some people can't. (Love that interview where they validated my impression that yes, Philip is loyal, but not in the way Elizabeth is because it's just not in his nature to be like that--very realistic.)

But Paige is also her own person with a different history and current emotions. Whatever her reaction it won't be something easily predictable. Both parents see themselves in the same-sex child for good reason, but they're still different people and what their parents want or need from them or for them won't exactly fit what the kid needs or wants.

Re: Why would they tell her before they recruit her?

[katiac]

I think telling her kind of has to come first, or at least, some establishment of honesty has to come first, as that's the real thing they're missing, and why Paige feels so alienated from them. This isn't to say they couldn't also soften the ground with some propaganda type stuff, her and Elizabeth talking about X issue, or whatever, but when they've kind of tried to do that to date, Paige has pretty consistently brushed it off. She knows she's being lied to and is rejecting them as a result.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[katiac]

I would think it would be that much more damaging for Jared to find out the truth from Kate rather than his parents, and then have that lie staring him in the face every time he went home and be unable to act to let out his anger about it. (My understanding was that E/L didn't realize he knew the truth or was being recruited against their wishes until the hotel room--was that how everyone else took it?) It would distance him from them and heighten his sense of having no voice versus a scenario where they told him, where he might be really pissed for awhile, but would probably get through it differently.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[sistermagpie]

Oh, absolutely. To me--and I think to the Jennings--the bigger issue is making her a spy rather than telling her the truth, even though that's a big deal. But what seemed strange about Claudia is that she said they just had to do it "soon" and then "start preparing her" as if telling her was just ripping off the band aid. Which in a sense it is, but it's also the most explosive.

I thought that too in the podcasts where the showrunners made the point that if P said "see what happened when they told Jared" E would rightly say "see what happened when his parents didn't tell him." I agree--and I think Philip would have to agree as well--that if anybody is going to tell her it has to be them. But it's still not something I can think of as just the first step in recruitment. It might end that.

I agree, btw, that it seems like this all came out in the hotel room. Before that Emmett and Leanne didn't know their cover was blown.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[jae]

But it's still not something I can think of as just the first step in recruitment. It might end that.

Absolutely. Telling her could conceivably reveal that recruitment isn't possible. (That's not likely to happen on the show given that that wouldn't make for very good long-term dramatic storytelling, but it's easy to imagine.)

-J

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[katiac]

I don't think Paige wants to be rid of her parents at all. She can complain about wanting to get rid of them because she's completely secure of them. Of course she might snap like Jared did, but so could kids who were adopted.

Right. I mean she says some stuff about how she can't wait to leave home at 18, but then that's just teenage drama. I kind of roll my eyes every time she makes a comment like that because it's exactly like you said, it's just a marker of how secure she is in that relationship that she can push them away and know they're still always going to be there for her.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[katiac]

and there's no big cost to her if she turns her valuable parents in. (She loses her parents, but she already wants rid of them and, in this case, has just discovered that they were even worse than she thought. She's not going to prison or losing her job or... She'd probably become a celebrity.)

I think lots of times teenagers say they "hate" their parents or "can't wait to move out" but don't really mean it. I know I never did. Paige and Henry really have a pretty cushy life. Paige has two parents who love her. She has a comfortable room full of nice clothes, pretty shoes, books, posters, free time to do as she pleases, the freedom to pursue her interests... yes, she's rebelling right now, but saying you want to be rid of your parents is very different from the prospect of actually losing them.

I think Paige is naive in some ways, but not *that* naive to actually consider turning them in. Think of what happens the moment she does. She gets to set foot in that house again only to pack up her things to go to foster care. She has no other family. No relatives. Does she even get to stay with Henry? Will Henry ever speak to her again if she destroys their life by telling on their parents? They suddenly have no money. No family ever again. No future. No security. An adult Paige, eh, I could see that going either way, but a 14 year old Paige I have a hard time seeing ratting her parents out simply because kids in general tend to not rat their parents out even when their parents are doing something really bad *to them* because the disruption to their security and the threat of the unknown is so terrifying, and that's not even the case here.

And that's before we even get into the emotional dependence Paige certainly has on both her parents, which, although she may deny it with dumb statements to Henry to look like an all-knowing big sister, is absolutely going to be a factor. I can't even picture a scenario where her first reaction is to run across the street to Stan Beeman and tattle. Preacher Tim, who knows, but I imagine P/E would be careful to make sure Paige isn't still in a stage of complete gaga-ness over him before saying anything.