theamericans | Episode discussion post: "Rififi"

She still loves him so much (of course) that she doesn't want him to risk his life on a mission that she fears will end in blood.

I didn't give Elizabeth that much credit here. Not that I think she wants him to risk his life, but I thought she'd backed herself into such a contemptuous position that she couldn't bring herself to ask for help and be vulnerable. She had no trouble asking him to do the thing with Kimmy because that was just her needing him to serve her in an op. But after deciding he was a waste of space selfish jerk she could only ask for help in her old passive-aggressive way. That is, not ask for help at all but take an opportunity to tell him he's an asshole for expecting her to be as useless as he is.

I think reaching out to Henry was also a way of reaching out to Philip. That is, she wanted an emotional connection, she's too angry at Philip, but Henry is like Philip in that he, too, loves her for things other than being a spy. He's normal and gives her what she needs. It's nice that he responds to her just because he can see she's asking him for something but doesn't quiz her on why. He just gives her what she's asking for and then alerts his father to the trouble.

Another small thing about that phone call is I thought it was a nice little "tell" (if we could call it that) that she'd never read On Walden Pond, a book that so many high schoolers have to suffer through. Of course it's possible she could have just missed it, but it's pretty standard. Especially for AP American Lit which Henry would be taking--how great that even his favorite subject was American.

Also that seemed to relate to Philip to me because part of Walden Pond is about living the simple life. Experiencing the joy of nature as opposed to these bigger things that every other person in the family is focused on, even Henry with his plans for the future.

I disagree that Elizabeth didn’t ask for help for fear of appearing to be vulnerable. She flat out admitted that Chicago is going to be a disaster and she expects to fail. She chose to go this solitary route to spare him from doing any more bloody field work. She still wants to spare him from that. These two hit their absolute lowest emotional point in this episode but what they’re facing has shocked them both into remembering that they love each other deeply. Even Philip’s flippant answer to her ‘who are you?’ question was a sly admission of love. ‘I’m the same idiotic asshole who's loved you all along, and I’m coming to save you.’ That was his way of burying all the emotional hatchets they’ve been throwing at each other all season.

Also disagree that Elizabeth’s call to Henry was meant to be a proxy for Philip. I take that scene at face value. Elizabeth thinks that she is about to die. In her own awkward way, she wanted to tell her son that she loves him. Her fumbling around talking about trivial things was her way of showing Henry that she did care about every tiny aspect of his life, even if she never showed it. It was so much all at once that even Henry was surprised because she’s never shown that much open interest in him before.

Yeah, but admitting she's going to die heroically is not the same as saying she wants help not to do that. Philip didn't quit the business because he was afraid of dying, he quit because he didn't want to hurt other people--this isn't a bloody mission as far as we know. They're extracting the guy. It's dangerous for them, not other people. So Elizabeth doesn't protect him by keeping him out of danger. She earlier flat out told him he was a jerk for not doing his job.

Also disagree that Elizabeth’s call to Henry was meant to be a proxy for Philip. I take that scene at face value. Elizabeth thinks that she is about to die. In her own awkward way, she wanted to tell her son that she loves him. Her fumbling around talking about trivial things was her way of showing Henry that she did care about every tiny aspect of his life, even if she never showed it. It was so much all at once that even Henry was surprised because she’s never shown that much open interest in him before.

No, I didn't mean he was a proxy for Philip. I meant that Henry, along with being Henry himself who I agree she was calling for himself, also represents things she loves in Philip but is currently unable to say she appreciates.

I didn't see Elizabeth's statements as in any way her implying that she was going to die heroically. She doesn't want to die. She's merely resigned to dying if that's what it takes.

In this particular discussion, I don't think that she was trying to manipulate him into coming to help her. As for her calling him a jerk earlier, they both said or implied incredibly poisonous things to each other. That happens in a stressed marriage. The closer people are to each other, the easier it to to know exactly what to do or say that will be the most hurtful. They're both flawed and both communicate poorly with each other. That's been one of the most fascinating things to observe in this series, to me at least. This season long breakdown in their ability to communicate with each other has been painfully fascinating to watch because it parallels real life married couples so well. Married people sometimes say horrible things to each other when they're stressed or when their life choices start to separate them acutely. Couples can either break up at that point, or else remember that they love each other. Sometimes getting Philip to communicate what he feels is like pulling teeth. Other times he's open and eager (sometimes too eager) to share what he's feeling. Elizabeth tends to demonstrate what she's feeling in lieu of expressing it in words. She was ready to be done with all the spying last season (3 years ago in show time) just as much as Philip was. Now she's beyond the edge of her endurance but she's pushing on anyway. Even now, she would never tell Philip she wants his help. It's not a pride thing or because she thinks he can't cut it. She's trying to uphold her end of the deal they made when he quit. No matter what other issues they both still need to resolve between them, Philip finally opened his eyes and saw the state she's really in and he's going to help her because she needs him. He was broken at the end of the last season and she stepped up for him. Now three years later, she's broken and he's stepping up for her.

That's how I see all this.

Well, I'm even more extreme here.

I think Elizabeth called Henry to say goodbye. Not because he reminds her of Philip, but because he's the only non-spy in the house, who has no idea what his mother does. When/if everything blows up, he's going to get the shock of his life. She might be dead by then, and so when that happens, she wants him to think good of her.

She's not trying to save Philip, she is truly contemptuous of him right now. Philip, on the other hand, is going against everything he believes in, because he does love Elizabeth.

In the episode, Philip said he loves Elizabeth.

"Look, I love your mother. She loves me."

But Elizabeth never said that.

And it's just as believable as his next sentence, that "everything's fine."

Elizabeth might accept Philip's help, because she really has no choice, but she really doesn't want to. She didn't call for help, even when she realized that things are extremely bad. In fact, she didn't call Philip at all. No "get the kids out before it's too late" this time.

I think Elizabeth called Henry to say goodbye. Not because he reminds her of Philip, but because he's the only non-spy in the house, who has no idea what his mother does. When/if everything blows up, he's going to get the shock of his life. She might be dead by then, and so when that happens, she wants him to think good of her.

Very good point! I was thinking of Henry as being, besides himself, a symbol of her non-spying life and wanting to show that she valued it, which is how I saw that as a semi-nod to Henry as well. but what you're saying makes sense.

Elizabeth might accept Philip's help, because she really has no choice, but she really doesn't want to. She didn't call for help, even when she realized that things are extremely bad. In fact, she didn't call Philip at all. No "get the kids out before it's too late" this time.

If we assume she wouldn't have called him at all it means she would have been quite happy to have her last words to him be contemptuous. To me it seems somewhat significant that she called Henry not just for the reasons you mentioned but also that he's so out of it there's less stuff for her to give away.

She didn't call for help, even when she realized that things are extremely bad. In fact, she didn't call Philip at all.

How often has Elizabeth ever asked for help? I'm not sure that Elizabeth even truly knows how to ask for help. She's always regarded Philip's recognition of his own feelings to be a weakness. Feelings are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is getting the job done. That's one of her strengths, but also one of her biggest flaws as a person. But Philip knows this about her which is why he told her he was coming.

I generally agree, but in the past she did talk to him about getting out in case of danger. Here she's going into possible death and discovery, and she just called up Henry.

Have to say, I agree with this very harsh assessment. Elizabeth's feelings towards Philip seem to have reverted to her season 1 feelings but with more contempt thrown in.

In a way, she brought it on herself by agreeing to go it alone so he could stop spying - which, ironically, was a decision she made surely because she loved him.

On the other hand, Philip has also brought it on them by dropping out the way he did and leaving her to do all these terrible things and carry the burden of them (which I think she's only subconsciously aware of) by herself.

But if he hadn't dropped out, it would have destroyed him.

Either way, they both lose.

Edited 2018-05-04 15:17 (UTC)

But I have to say, it seems a bit unfair to talk about him quitting as her taking on a burden alone. They both were doing a job. Philip became morally opposed to the job and wanted to quit. Elizabeth was not morally opposed and didn't want to quit. So he quit and she didn't.

I understand her telling him to quit as an act of love, but saying that she's therefore taking on his burden is implying that she's entitled to him helping her as long as she wants to work. She has the same choice as he did: keep working if you want or stop if you don't.

I'm not trying to undercut Elizabeth's gesture in telling him to quit, but it's just always seemed significant to me that scene back in I think S3 when Elizabeth talks about how she secretly hoped to get a chance to "be there" for him the way he's there for her. But she never actually gets or takes that chance because the mission is always more important.

The single time Elizabeth made a choice where she put Philip above the mission was at the end of S5 when she suggested quitting--and then she took that back when an important mission thing came up. Perhaps if it hadn't been that, it would have been something else that she couldn't leave.

So again, this isn't to undercut that Elizabeth did tell him to quit out of love for him, the pattern is unchanged. Philip freely chooses to work when he doesn't want to because she needs him. Elizabeth does not choose to build a life without the work for him.

The best she managed was to tell him to quit on his own, but inevitably that meant he'd wind up working again. In this ep he himself suggests it without her having to openly ask (just say in general she needs help). In the last ep she openly asked him to do exactly the kind of thing that was killing him before and when he didn't she insulted him.

One other thing that occurred to me about her insults to him, actually, is that she still has that black and white thinking that came up in the fight of David Copperfield, whether or not she really means what she's saying. When Philip tells her he will not help kidnap Kimmie and use her as a hostage, she accuses him of sleeping with her because he wanted to. For Elizabeth you're either doing it for the cause or you're doing it for some selfish reason. She's never been able to understand his objections to the job as ideological. It just comes down to what he wants personally.

You are of course right. I guess I feel that Elizabeth is being written very, very unsympathetically this season (she often is, but this is the worst) and I feel like the audience is being encouraged to hate her, so I can't help taking her side a little.

Interesting point.. The show started off as showing us the "other side", but now they're sort of taking sides. Elizabeth is wrong, Philip is right. That's old USSR vs. new USSR/US

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it.

But I guess the situation was very polarised when it happened so it makes sense to act that out with the characters.

Sure. But why take Philip's side?

You mean the writers?

Well, I suppose because they agree more with his POV?

I think they're being rather heavy-handed, though. At the moment, it's hard to see what Philip ever saw in Elizabeth and I've never felt that before.

I think that's because now it's personal, and they're on opposite sides. In the past, I think the writers also showed us that they prefer the US, but both P&E disagreed with them, and we could see their dilemmas.

Re: Philip and Elizabeth

shapinglight - 2018-05-06 17:05 (UTC) - Expand

I'm actually not so sure they are taking his side. To hear them talk they still seem to think Elizabeth's amazing and it's admirable how singleminded she is. They may still think she's wrong, but more in a tragic way than a hateful one.

I mean, it still seems like the show's structured around her being the hero even if she's tragic and needs to be saved herself. They could do a lot more to play up the more straightforward hero story of Oleg and Philip.

Re: Philip and Elizabeth

shapinglight - 2018-05-06 17:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Philip and Elizabeth

sistermagpie - 2018-05-08 18:49 (UTC) - Expand

I can definitely say that I don't hate her at least! But I think they're both at extremes. Elizabeth is so harsh without Philip she's all mission and people start to dislike her. Philip gets treated as a useless failure on all sides in the show!

Elizabeth might accept Philip's help, because she really has no choice, but she really doesn't want to. She didn't call for help, even when she realized that things are extremely bad. In fact, she didn't call Philip at all. No "get the kids out before it's too late" this time.

Sorry, but i don’ think so. She would not tell him the real situation
I think Elizabeth want Philip help, but she remember their agreement and she know how it’s hard for him join in action again…

But otoh she did try to get him involved in the Kimmie plot and was furious (or at least it came across that way) when he refused. I think it's complicated but her actions do still make sense to me.

But otoh she did try to get him involved in the Kimmie plot and was furious (or at least it came across that way) when he refused. I think it's complicated but her actions do still make sense to me

I got your point and now I’m more confused! 😄
I mean, Philip goes to Chicago because he loves her and he was always been ready to give all away for her, but, otoh, he knows that if she is going to fall apart, he is too: 10 minutes later and he will have the FBI on the door…
Elizabeth is a question mark: ok, as I said I see your point: Elizabeth might accept Philip's help, because she really has no choice, but she really doesn't want to. She didn't call for help, even when she realized that things are extremely bad. In fact, she didn't call Philip at all. No "get the kids out before it's too late" this time
Elizabeth shoud know what Philip knows too. So, why she didn’t call him to get the kids out? Doesn’t she care anymore? Mmm, I don’t think! Look, Philip called Elizabeth, not her!

Really I don’t know!

On the other hands I’m a romantic. I think she realizes she needs more support but on top she needs her husband..
I’m thinking to the entire scene into the Chicago bedroom. Lot of things are there.

When Philip walked into the room, right before Elizabeth sincerely tells him that he didn’t have to come, there’s a shot where she looks at him with almost tearful and downright disbelieving affection.
After that, Elizabeth asked Philip if he was going to stay , such in S1 callback?, with a kind of shyness and hesitation that’s so rare for her, and we got to see the relief in her entire body language (let me say, Keri was amazing) when he put the bag on the bed. That one small action signaled that Philip wasn’t there as tactical support; She knows he was there as her husband. And that’s what she wanted.

We must remember that the last time they saw each other they had a big fight. Elizabeth doesn’t know how Philip feels his self.
That’s why she tells him she didn’t think he would come.
Ar least I think Elizabeth is a little bit upset

Yeah, I feel for her throughout the scene. I can't say exactly what she's thinking, but it does make sense.

I mean, she encourages him to do the Kimmie thing, but she's probably telling herself that it's no big deal. Like she tells him that if he does this one thing he'll be free of her and really out of the spy game. She probably feels guilty about it, but can tell herself it's only a small request.

Then he refuses and she gets mad--and also jealous, since he slept with Kimmie. So she's giving him all the frustration and anger she feels. In the moment she really is mad and it feels good. She's probably back in the place of telling herself she's the superior, stronger one. Philip is, after all, the only person she can ever really be mad at, especially now. With everybody else she has to tailor her emotions or cover them up.

So she's probably still mad when she starts out for Chicago. But then she's alone and really taking in what's happening. She's always told herself she's ready to die--wants to die heroically. But here she is all alone and she really does want someone to love her. She's thinking about happier times and wishing she had Henry back etc., so she calls him to talk to him once more before she dies. She's probably telling herself at first that she's not going to call Philip because she's mad at him. Maybe she's first thinking he'll just be sorry when she's dead. Then she thinks...maybe he won't be sorry when she's dead. Whenever she's on death's door she tends to think everybody will be better off without her. She's insulted him and pushed him away and now she's alone.

So when he calls she really doesn't want him to think she's ordering him to come. She's still got her pride and he just basically accused her of being sort of a monster trying to trick him into doing terrible things.

But then he just shows up for her anyway, just like he did in S1 after she threw him out of the house. He's the same guy, he hasn't changed. And maybe when she says she didn't think he'd come she doesn't just mean she thought she wasn't worth it to him, but maybe she's wondering if she's not...?

Did I already say how wonderful it is to talk with you? Yes? Well, I do it again.

She probably feels guilty about it, but can tell herself it's only a small request.
Yes, she definitely can!

Then he refuses and she gets mad--and also jealous,
She is furios! Look how she walk to Page’s room! Jealous? Oh yes! She knows very well Philip never wanted to sleep with Kimmie. She said it to hurt him!
Look at her expression sitting in bed: she seemed distressed, maybe even a little sorry for what she told him. But more likely because she had to think about a B-plan.

Philip is, after all, the only person she can ever really be mad at, especially now.
I think she misses terribly sharing the weight of work with him. Now she is very lonely!

She's always told herself she's ready to die--wants to die heroically. But here she is all alone and she really does want someone to love her
Here you break my heart!

Whenever she's on death's door she tends to think everybody will be better off without her.
It’s a good call back to S1 e S4.

So when he calls she really doesn't want him to think she's ordering him to come I’m with you, She's still got her pride I have no doubt about this!

But then he just shows up for her anyway, just like he did in S1 after she threw him out of the house. He's the same guy, he hasn't changed
And here’s the her look I talked about!

And maybe when she says she didn't think he'd come she doesn't just mean she thought she wasn't worth it to him Ok….
but maybe she's wondering if she's not...? What??
I'm very sorry and I'm also ashamed, but here I don't get you

Edited 2022-07-02 00:02 (UTC)

Here you break my heart!

It's Elizabeth's fault! :-)

It’s a good call back to S1 e S4.

And S4 ep 4!

I'm very sorry and I'm also ashamed, but here I don't get you

Sorry, I meant that she's not just thinking, "I didn't think you'd come because you don't think I'm worth it." She's also thinking, "I didn't think you'd come because I'm really not worth it." Like she's down on herself as well as him. Maybe it was even a little easier for her to imagine him letting her down and feeling bad about it when she died--now she has to think about how much he does care about her? It's a complicated moment for sure!

I didn't see Elizabeth's statements as in any way her implying that she was going to die heroically. She doesn't want to die. She's merely resigned to dying if that's what it takes.

That's dying heroically.

I don't think she was trying to manipulate him into coming to her either. I just also don't think she's sweetly trying to shield him from the work since this isn't the part of the work has an issue with anyway.

She's trying to uphold her end of the deal they made when he quit.

She didn't care about upholding her end of the deal with she asked him to kidnap Kimmy or lashed out at him for not doing it or insulted him for being a useless slacker before she left. She made it clear she holds him in contempt for not giving enough of a shit to be doing this work. She broke her side of the deal already. It seems perfectly in character for Elizabeth to me, both in general as part of a pattern and according to everything she's doing in this episode, that she didn't want to ask for help for herself, not because she's shielding him.

Episode discussion post: "Rififi"

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