theamericans | Question of the week #7

I think it took a few episodes till they got more into it, but I like how the show compares the 'fake' and 'real' marriages, because in many ways, the Beemans' marriage is just as fake, if not more. Stan hasn't been home in years and now that he is, he has no idea how to rebuild the relationship.

While for the Jennings sleeping around with sources isn't 'cheating', both marriages are currently suffering from real affairs (Sandra's the only one who hasn't gone for it yet), and the response of both sides is the same. It's a breach of trust in all cases.

There are secrets in both families, but while for the Jennings it's a secret of who they are that they're keeping from the kids, for the Beemans - Stan can't share his work with his wife. And in that sense their marriage is even more problematic.

Yeah, agreed - both marriages have massive problems with honesty and trust, but my feeling is that the Jennings at least have something closer to equality in that, in as much as they're both equally secretive/restrained. For the Beemans, Stan has all the power: unless they're holding out on us, Sandra doesn't have any real secrets from Stan, but he has a whole load of things he isn't telling her about.

I also think, relatedly, that the Jennings' work partnership makes a massive difference. They may have secrets, but they also have shared experience which binds them together - years worth of it - which the Beemans don't.

I also think, relatedly, that the Jennings' work partnership makes a massive difference. They may have secrets, but they also have shared experience which binds them together - years worth of it - which the Beemans don't.

Yes, this is totally relevant. The Jennings' romantic connection grows out of their work in a way; the work awesomeness came before the relationship awesomeness. Sandra sensed this and commented on it in one episode, too, thinking it was about the travel business. She envies them their work connection because it's Stan's work--everything he's done that he can't or won't tell her--that comes between them.

-J

On the other hand, working together can also ruin a marriage. Philip and Elizabeth are not just working together, their job requires them to trust their partner with their life. I think that is why their 'marriage' will be strong no matter what. Elizabeth can kick Philip out of the house, but when it really matters, she knows she can trust him.

She knows she can trust him professionally, for sure. She's still not sure she can trust him personally, and I think that's fair. But I think they'll make it work. Because you're right--that's a damn solid basis to build the foundation of a relationship on, whatever other obstacles might be standing in their way.

-J

That's a good point about the power balance, I didn't think about that.

As for the work partnership giving them years of experience - technically, if Stan would have been around for his family, he would have had that experience too. Raising a family and everything around that gives you a lot of shared experience that binds you together.

For two marriages that seem superficially so different, there sure are a lot of similarities between them now that I'm thinking about it. I mean, in terms of big differences we have the Jennings' arranged marriage in contrast with the Beemans' chosen one, and the fact that the actual romantic relationship between the Jenningses is very new, while the one between the Beemans presumanbly started when they met. But on the similarities side, well, Treon is right in that they're both dealing with issues of cheating. I mean, given their jobs it doesn't count as cheating when, say, Philip has sex with Martha, but both Philip and Elizabeth seem to view outright lies (Philip with Irina) and lies of omission (Elizabeth with Gregory) as cheating when they involve sex with other people. But just generally, even beyond the fidelity issues, there are bigger issues of trust. For one thing, both Stan and Philip lie like breathing, and both Elizabeth and Sandra have huge issues with that.

If I had to guess which one of the couples was more likely to still be together in, say, 1985, I'd have to go with Philip and Elizabeth by virtue of the fact that their romantic connection is still so new. I do think they both have a chance, though. :)

-J

both Philip and Elizabeth seem to view outright lies (Philip with Irina) and lies of omission (Elizabeth with Gregory) as cheating when they involve sex with other people

I'm not sure it's the issue of the lie, or the sex, for that matter. Philip wouldn't have felt less hurt if he knew about Gregory. It's kind of funny, since Philip might have been the 'model adulterer', but I see what he did as far less severe: he met an old girlfriend (who might have been using him), and fell into old patterns. Elizabeth, on the other hand, cheated on the most basic level - she felt she couldn't make an emotional connection with Philip, and so sought it elsewhere.

Elizabeth, on the other hand, cheated on the most basic level - she felt she couldn't make an emotional connection with Philip, and so sought it elsewhere.

I'm sure you're right that that's how Philip regards it, but I, well, I disagree with him? :) No matter how you slice it, the romantic relationship between Philip and Elizabeth didn't begin until 1981. Yes, somewhere along the line Philip fell in love with her, and so of course it's going to be oh-so-painful for him to find out that she's been in a decade-long relationship that he hasn't known about. I totally sympathize with him for that, believe me. But that's not a betrayal. It's more analogous to when the person you're in love with who doesn't love you back finds someone else--it's just complicated by the fact that they've been posing as married and Philip has a tendency to blur the lines between the fake and the real in his head.

[Philip] met an old girlfriend (who might have been using him), and fell into old patterns.

Right, and if that's all that had happened, Elizabeth would probably have been hurt, and terribly jealous, but she wouldn't have kicked him out (especially since he was REQUIRED to have sex with Irina in the context of the mission!). But he came home and lied to Elizabeth about it, as easily as he lies to anyone. And it's the latter part of that that matters most to her--in order for her to be able to trust him, she needs to be the one person he doesn't lie to, but instead he treated her like Martha. To me, it was the trust thing that was the dealbreaker for Elizabeth (and couple that with the fact that it was making her crazy enough that the work was suffering, and she was ready to put an end to it).

Stan, on the other hand, is just plain cheating. I'm sure it's more complicated than that in his head, but it's not more complicated than that in his relationship.

-J

Edited 2013-06-18 12:42 (UTC)

Double oops.

Re Elizabeth - you're definitely right, I was thinking from Philip's pov. From Elizabeth's pov (and actually from my pov too ;-), she didn't do anything wrong. What was he expecting?

And as far as Philip goes, I apparently made a mishmash of the episode in my head. Did he really need to have sex with Irina for the mission, though? I don't see the point in lying about it if he did. And I guess I was thinking 3rd millenium technology too. Could she claim rape in the 80s and nobody would know who she had sex with her?

What was he expecting?

He was in the mindset that they had become Philip and Elizabeth Jennings (which he actually says outright to her during the pilot!). Her relationship with Gregory put a big lie to that, which I totally, totally feel for him for.

But no, she didn't do anything wrong. On the contrary, she actually ended things with Gregory well before I think she had to--the first hint of something new blossoming between her and Philip and she was telling Gregory (someone she's been with for a decade, remember!) that they had to end the romantic side of their own relationship. That's kind of shocking, really, and it says something about how Elizabeth views these kinds of things.

Did he really need to have sex with Irina for the mission, though?

Yeah, that was clear from context (and yes, she did claim rape by the Polish dissident and no one was the wiser). I mean, I'm sure it was more emotionally complex for Philip (and possibly for Irina) than that (because the mission certainly didn't require them to spend the night together afterwards, and they did), but that's what it was superficially anyway.

I don't see the point in lying about it if he did.

That's what got ME about the episode, and I stewed over that in the "Duty and Honor" episode discussion in my journal for a long time. Because that was clearly his big mistake, and it was so unnecessary! And his fumbling explanation in a later episode "I didn't want to lose you" just rang false (or at least incomplete) to me.

But I think what it comes down to is that lying is such second nature to him that it's just his way of getting out of any jam he's in. So when Elizabeth confronted him, that was his first gut reaction: to lie and twist and manipulate. Plus, I also think there's a level on which he was still hurt and angry with her over both Gregory and the fact that she'd been informing on him, and he wanted to have his own secret for himself that he didn't have to tell her about.

-J

Just jumping in to say that I really like your brain. :) And omg, I hadn't quite put it like that to myself before, but yes, she dumps an entire ten year relationship, one that clearly matters to her a lot, for a maybe with Philip. I just. *incoherent flailing*

Oh and I definitely think Philip lied mostly on instinct and also because he wanted to have his own secret to get back at her a little with. My current theory is that he rationalised it later to himself as not wanting to put their relationship to that particular test right at that minute, but I think he'd be wrong about that.

Yeah, I may have thought more about these characters than is normal, even for fannish types. Er. :)

she dumps an entire ten year relationship, one that clearly matters to her a lot, for a maybe with Philip.

Yeah, I'm just soooo fascinated by that.

My current theory is that he rationalised it later to himself as not wanting to put their relationship to that particular test right at that minute, but I think he'd be wrong about that.

I like this!

-J

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All of that makes complete emotional sense, but what I keep getting hung up on is the fact that he had to have sex with Irina for the mission to run smoothly (because she wanted to be able to cry rape and discredit the Polish dissident). Which makes labeling it "cheating" much more ambiguous, you know? I really like your analysis of what was going through his mind, and I do totally agree with it, but I also think that extra layer of it having been sortakinda for work is also there. He didn't exactly get caught up in her beauty and get carried away with himself--he beat her up and then they had sex, for work.

-J

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I agree with all of this, but I do also think it couldn't have been emotionless for them, not with their history. Regardless of his complete devotion to Elizabeth, there was no way they were just going to be able to be businesslike about it (and the KGB knew that when they assigned him that particular mission in the first place, and did it deliberately). I just think that adds a layer of ambiguity to it that Elizabeth isn't able to see due to her (as you point out) hot button about trust and lying.

-J

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I get what you're saying about how it could have gone down with Irina, and mostly agree with it. But I do think that the KGB knew the nostalgia factor would be strong, and that's the very reason they brought Irina back in right then.

My take on the Elizabeth-and-Gregory reunion in "Only You" is that it happened a) while Philip and Elizabeth were still broken up, and b) at a time when they both realized that Gregory only had a few hours to live. I think Philip can hardly begrudge her that, given those mitigating factors.

-J

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Hmm, that's an interesting perspective. I'll have to think about it some more (and maybe do some rewatching in light of what you're saying), but for now I guess I'm more willing to give the characters the "passes" they're giving themselves. I tend to come down harder on the one who's seeing things in a black-and-white way when things are full of shades of grey (and they've both done this).

-J

gave back a sentimental piece of jewelry as if to say, "Anything real we might've formed is OVER,"

I really need to rewatch, but as far as I remember: Philip was the one who asked for the jewelry, as if HE didn't care. And even though he needed it for business, it hurt Elizabeth. I mean, he needed it for his mistress. Unless Elizabeth was thinking unemotionally, it would have hurt.

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Just goes to show that memory can be very subjective. At least mine. I could have sworn that Philip had asked for that piece specifically.

So I looked it up, and of course you're right. That scene played out completely differently. And it's almost all non-verbal too.

You make very interesting points! I'm looking forward to the group re-watch, I'll have to pay attention to these things.

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You're definitely right that if it had been just about the work, they wouldn't have spent the night together. Also, his little smile at the beginning of that episode definitely suggested that he was looking forward to seeing her in a way that was about more than just some vague nostalgia! But I really do think it's not as black-and-white as Elizabeth ultimately made it out to be, either. I strongly suspect that if they hadn't been required to have sex for the mission, they wouldn't have, you know?

-J

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I can buy all of what you say about Philip and Irina here. And whether or not they would have had sex, them seeing each other again was always going to be fraught with all sorts of tiny betrayals on the emotional level, at the very least (which Elizabeth of course could see for herself before he left, which is why she was so distraught while he was gone). Incidentally, I actually also read Irina's manipulations as being less personally motivated than directed from above (i.e. as a test to see if she could get him to run away, so that their superiors could find out more about his loyalties post-torture). Not that that matters for the betrayal, but it's another layer.

I should probably warn you that you and I have rather different takes on Gregory and Elizabeth's relationship with him, though. I mean, like you I'm totally rooting for Elizabeth and Philip in 1981 (just in case you end up doubting where my loyalties lie once you read my story-to-come...which I hope you don't end up hating! how do you feel about other canon-compliant takes in fanfiction that don't entirely jive with your own?) but at the same time, I also think Gregory was exactly what she needed back when she met him, and that she really genuinely loved him. A decade-plus on, she's in the middle of realizing that she can have equally strong feelings for someone who she knows intuitively like the back of her hand, who she's raised kids with, who shares her cultural background (if not her political ideals), and so of course she's going to choose that (I mean, I think the speed with which she ends things with Gregory after things start developing with Philip in 1981 is very telling). But it wasn't always like that, and my take definitely involves very real feelings from her toward Gregory, even though she never let him in in the way she does later with Philip. I also think Gregory genuinely does think Philip is bad for her, too, so I see his behaviour toward her as more than just self-interest.

-J

Edited 2013-07-05 16:59 (UTC)

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It's so interesting (and so great!) to me that you decided to focus on the Philip/Elizabeth relationship with your stories, because I had precisely the opposite reaction when I was first feeling my way through what to write. With my stories (both with the one I just finished and the one I've just started working on), I'm focusing on the past because I felt like the show was telling me the stories I wanted to hear about their present. Before I read your story, I would have never thought it would be possible to tell such a nuanced story that runs parallel with what we're already seeing on the screen, centred around each episode. Now that I've seen how well it works, well, I still don't want to do it myself, but I'm very glad you're doing it!

I've also noticed that Elizabeth has never used the word 'love' apart from with the kids. I actually don't think she ever said 'I love you' to Gregory, either, even back in the good old days (when I say she loved Gregory and loves Philip, I'm judging that from my outside perspective, not giving my Elizabeth's perspective).

You can ignore this question if it's too personal, but I'm terribly curious: I can't help but notice that we both love Philip and Elizabeth equally, but we both decided to write from Elizabeth's point of view, and tell her story. Do you have a sense of why that was the case for you?

-J

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Interesting. I look forward to hearing things from Philip's perspective!

I actually wrote a series very much like what you're writing once--centring stories around particular episodes, spanning decades--for a different fandom. And I've never seen it done other than that anywhere else in fandom (everybody else has always kind of poked fun at me about my obsession with keeping things canon-compliant and using canon in very deliberate ways in my stories, in fact), which is one of the many things that makes your work so fascinating to me.

-J

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Hi! Welcome to the comm. :)

I suspected based on your story that you and I saw this differently (which is fine--I enjoyed reading your take too!). But I really don't think Elizabeth was lying to him any more than I would be lying if I had a secret relationship and didn't tell my co-workers about it. They never made each other any promises (explicit or implicit) beyond those of close co-workers, at least not until 1981, so she didn't owe Philip any sort of disclosure.

Where we do agree is in the fact that Philip was much more communicative than she was, throughout their early years. He went out of his way to be more honest with her than he'd probably ever been with anyone. And you bet that finding out she hadn't regarded their relationship in the same way he always had led to him being willing to lie to her later.

-J

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See, but from my perspective, she owed Gregory that much. Look at it from Gregory's point of view: she was dumping him after a decade-plus of him getting only part of her due to the nature of her job, and him settling for that, and then he ultimately lost her entirely to someone he must have been terribly jealous of. Elizabeth was right to let Gregory go before things became entirely official with Philip, but she owed Gregory that explanation more than she owed it to Philip, who she didn't have that romantic history with. I do think she would have ultimately been honest with Philip about Gregory if Gregory hadn't spilled the beans, but things were still so tenuous between them at that point that she wasn't ready yet.

-J

Edited 2013-07-05 17:01 (UTC)

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Philip feels like the victim because his "wife" cheated on him when he was faithful for 15 years. Elizabeth feels like the victim because she was forced into a marriage and sexual relationship with a man she didn't choose. Gregory feels like a victim because he gave everything for this woman who came over when she wanted sex/affection and then left for her home/life with another man--then she dumped him like an afterthought.

Yes, this is it exactly. And you know, while I do have my own perspectives on whether or not they each "have the right" to feel like the victim, in the end it doesn't really matter whether they have that right. After all, each of those perspectives is totally understandable when you're looking at it from the corresponding point of view. They've all been hurt--they've all hurt each other.

-J

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Yes, exactly! Agreed on all counts.

And tangentially, I find it incredibly frustrating when fans pick a side and decide the other one is just completely wrong (or even a horrible person). The whole point of the show is about to what extent it's possible to understand "the other side," the least we as fans can do is try to understand each of the characters' individual points of view.

-J

Question of the week #7

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