Episode discussion post: "Echo"

[jae]

Aired:
21 May 2014 in the U.S. and Canada
25 May 2014 in Israel
7 June 2014 in the UK

This is a discussion post for episode 213 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season two, episode thirteen.)

Original promo trailer

"The Americans Season 2 Episode 13 Promo - Echo [HD] The Americans 2x13 Promo" (Watch on YouTube)

Episode recaps

From Grantland
From Time
From the Washington Post
From Rolling Stone
From the AV Club
From Hitfix
From IGN
From the Huffington Post: Karen Fratti, Maureen Ryan
From Vulture
From Variety
From the Tampa Bay Times
From Sound on Sight
From Collider
From Paste Magazine
From Gawker
From the Cloture Club
From tv.com
From tvrage.com
From Headline Planet
From spoilertv.com (in French)
From TV Ate My Wardrobe
From GAMbIT Magazine
From showratings.tv
From Comments Enabled
From Boob Tube Dude
From Unreality Primetime (UK)

Comments

Re: Second generation illegals

[jae]

I never linked to any articles about the KGB recruiting the children of illegals; the stuff I know about that is all stuff I've read about in books. I'm not going to nitpick the article you linked to line-by-line, but there are a couple of problems with it. There's only one actual outright factual issue (the "because they weren't old enough" line, which suggests that the guy isn't aware that the illegals programme had existed within Soviet intelligence since well before the Second World War and that there had therefore been illegals throughout many generations), but there are also all sorts of other assumptions he makes that are either outdated or based on best-case scenarios (such as the notion that there "weren't huge numbers" of illegals--we simply don't know enough to claim that). He also doesn't seem to be aware that the existing SVR simply picked up where the KGB left off and is still running illegal agents today, and in at least some cases the very same agents the KGB ran. (Case in point: the couple in Germany--with a daughter--who had been living there under Austrian cover identities since the 1980s and were only very recently unmasked as KGB/SVR illegals.)

What we do know is what I've said elsewhere in this conversation: we know about a small handful of children of illegals who became spies themselves, and we also know that there were probably more who we don't know about. There may have been lots, there may have been very few. The recruitment of the children of illegals may also still be going on today, but it might not--we simply don't know. We do know that there were at least some, though. (We also know that the children of former KGB spies of other sorts--i.e. not illegals--are at least sometimes recruited to become illegals themselves. Anna Chapman herself was one of those. This isn't directly relevant to the notion of "second-generation illegals," but it does suggest that the children of spies are still considered to be good candidates to be spies themselves someday, even nowadays.)

More important than any of that, though, is the fact that you seem to be having trouble with this because you imagine the KGB coming to someone like Paige and saying "guess what? your parents are actually Soviet spies! now you're going to work for us!" But there's really no way that was how it worked in real life, or how it would work on the show. When you're recruiting the child of two of your spies, there are some special circumstances, but you're still recruiting an agent. We've seen them recruit agents on the show in all sorts of different ways, and we've seen that the best way for each potential agent is chosen. The "love interest" angle would have been chosen specifically for Jared; something else would be chosen for a different child, just like for any other agent. We've also seen them "vet" a potential recruit and then back off when they realize the person is not recruitable. So if they studied Paige and couldn't find a way in, they'd abandon the project and never end up telling her.

My personal theory is that you're right that they're playing the long game, and that next season is not going to be about the KGB actually trying to recruit Paige, but the conflict being on opposite sides of the fence on the issue of Paige's potential recruitment will bring up for Philip and Elizabeth. Whether or not they eventually follow through and recruit Paige will depend on many factors involved in how all of that plays out. But if it does eventually happen, there's simply no way it'll be as simple as "your parents are spies--now work for us!" It'll be a long, involved process that will play on Paige's particular personality, with all of its strengths and weaknesses.

-J

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

First off, thanks for all the info, I only skim read the article but I definitely didn't check any reliability factors. Uhuh, the german couple sounds really familiar I think I did read a news link of that - I was probably getting confused with the 2nd gen stuff.

As for the third article, I think what set me off on that track was Claudia saying "First soon, you need to tell her who you really are, who she really is, get her ready. Then develop her until the time is right for you to tell her that she will join our ranks" I did not think it would be a "hey guess what we're spies now come work for us cuz we're working for the greater good." I'd expect it to be gradual and unsteady, but in terms of how they recruit other agents a lot of them are based on manipulation, for instance Fred and Martha. And I just can't talk myself through it haha - I have complete faith in the show if they do go down this track, but for me I just can't imagine it, like I can't imagine what plays they would make - and that's my problem. It really sucks I'm limiting myself with all this negativity, I'm sorry!!

So if they studied Paige and couldn't find a way in, they'd abandon the project and never end up telling her. On this, do you mean they'd never end up telling her the truth about them, or never telling her they wanted to recruit her. Claudia's version of the orders sounded pretty firm, if the KGB had it's way.

But if it does eventually happen, there's simply no way it'll be as simple as "your parents are spies--now work for us!" It'll be a long, involved process that will play on Paige's particular personality, with all of its strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, you're right about this definitely, and I'd be excited if they do go down this plot road and prove my skepticism wrong!!!!

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

Oh sorry after I talked about Fred and Martha I was going to talk about Gregory as well, and all their other assets like Charles etc who both know P/E's real identities so have been told the truth but are still 'controlled' by P/E...(wait Phil didn't wear a disguise with Charles did he). But Gregory was someone who we presume was bitter towards his country, who's upbringing spurred on many of his visions for his country to change. Like they're all different situations and all those spycraft/recruitment ideas are really really fascinating and I love the show for all of them. It's just the specific one of their own children becoming assets and agents that I am momentarily struggling with :)

Re: Second generation illegals

[jae]

Oh, I definitely think that if the KGB were to recruit Paige, a whole lot of manipulation would have to be involved! And like I said, it would be very Paige-specific manipulation. To me, the more likely story for next season would involve Philip and Elizabeth struggling with whether they'd be willing to agree to allow her to be open to that, though.

On this, do you mean they'd never end up telling her the truth about them, or never telling her they wanted to recruit her. Claudia's version of the orders sounded pretty firm, if the KGB had it's way.

Right, but if the KGB actually found that there was no good way in with Paige, they would kind of HAVE to abandon the possibility of her being an agent for them. They don't want an unreliable agent, they want someone they can trust. We've seen cases on the show where they've vetted people and haven't ended up recruiting them, and I can only imagine that would be the case with the children of illegals, too.

The part I find myself wondering about is what's going on within Directorate S right now in light of the loss of two of their star illegals and their more recent recruit in those illegals' son. If I put myself in the position of one of their head honchos, and I see how the recruitment of Jared played out for them, I imagine that my first concern would be figuring out what went wrong. I'd almost certainly want to put a halt to the recruitment of any more kids until they can get to the bottom of that. That's clearly not happening, though, so what does that mean? Are there different factions within Directorate S who feel differently about this programme and its likelihood of success (we've seen other examples in the past of the illegals getting caught in the middle when different people within the KGB had different ideas about how to handle a certain situation)? And perhaps most importantly, is that something a Philip who doesn't want his kid recruited in the first place could use to his advantage?

-J

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

Haha it's taken a while for me to cotton on to what you mean. I think in my head I've been imagining E/P doing all the heavy manipulating and stuff but really what they're doing would be opening the door for the KGB to come in and do their magic on Paige. So if they did decide to do this, they would want to be in control (as Emmett and Leanne so clearly weren't), but it would still be somebody else other than Philip and Elizabeth doing it...right? What I mean is, was Kate brought in after Emmett and Leanne wouldn't agree to it, or was this the original plan to have Jared honeytrapped, and the only thing that didn't go according to plan was E/L's initial permission.

They don't want an unreliable agent, they want someone they can trust.
I guess we don't know much about the particulars of Jared's story, other than he knew Kate for a while, and then had the massive showdown with this parents. Wait, so the audience still thinks the KGB has no idea that Jared killed his parents, right? I mean, when he was doing his confession, it seemed like Kate would have known what went down and the only thing he wanted P/E to pass on was that he was a loyal soldier till the death. So did they think Jared was reliable, and still do? Or do they think he was unreliable, but made a massive fumble and didn't pull the plug.

Yeah in talking about the headhonchos, are we supposed to take it as, Jared has his deathbed confession, P/E pass message off to the Center, Claudia comes back and fills them (and us) on all the blanks. OR was it implied the KGB knew all of this before P/E and were keeping them in the dark. I think it's the first option, but then how did Kate not know if she was so close to Jared, surely the meeting in the pub wasn't their first meeting since the murders?

Re: Second generation illegals

[jae]

I think in my head I've been imagining E/P doing all the heavy manipulating and stuff but really what they're doing would be opening the door for the KGB to come in and do their magic on Paige.

I guess that's just my assumption? I mean, there really is very little known about how the recruitment of the children of illegals went in real life, but to me it would seem utterly bizarre to expect a couple to actually run their own daughter as an agent. Philip and Elizabeth have spelled out very clearly that they would have to consent to her recruitment or else, and we know through Claudia that the KGB expects that they would do the prep work for that recruitment (and I suppose that only makes sense), but I can't imagine a scenario where they would be the ones to run her.

What I mean is, was Kate brought in after Emmett and Leanne wouldn't agree to it, or was this the original plan to have Jared honeytrapped, and the only thing that didn't go according to plan was E/L's initial permission.

My guess is that there was no plan yet when Directorate S first approached Emmett and Leanne. If they hadn't reacted so adamantly against the idea, the Center probably would have devised a plan with their help; as things were, they devised a plan without their help. There's no reason to think the plan would have been completely different with their input, though. It did turn out to be a good way to turn Jared.

Wait, so the audience still thinks the KGB has no idea that Jared killed his parents, right?

Given that Claudia came to Philip and Elizabeth in the end fully in the know (and she herself says she hadn't been in the know before), and with new orders from the Center, I think it's pretty clear that the KGB now does know that Jared killed his parents. So I think it's your first option: "Jared has his deathbed confession, P/E pass message off to the Center, Claudia comes back and fills them (and us) on all the blanks."

how did Kate not know if she was so close to Jared, surely the meeting in the pub wasn't their first meeting since the murders?

Well, as sistermagpie pointed out elsewhere in the conversation, there were a bunch of things that Kate did well with Jared, but there were also places where she slipped up and missed things, so she might not have been the best person to handle that particular job. So I guess in evaluating this situation over at Directorate S, there might well be people who want to make the situation simple and pin all the blame on Kate, rather than taking another look at the techniques they use to recruit the children of illegals (or the notion of doing so in the first place). That would certainly explain why they're not putting a stop to the programme in light of what happened.

-J

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

With the last point, what I meant when I said "did Kate not know" I wasn't talking about his psychological break and extreme identity issues before the murder, I mean after the murder, did Jared not tell Kate what had happened? The way he was telling P/E these things hoping that they would be passed on to Kate, it felt like he was asking the first part to be passed on (that he saved their lives for the cause) and the second part (about the hotel murder) was just to fill them in. I can see why he would want to keep the murder hidden from the KGB, but I feel like he would think he and Kate have this great love story and he would tell her soon after it happened of this great heroic thing he did so they could be together for the cause. Am i reading this entirely wrong.

Did Jared ever tell Kate about the murders?

[jae]

Oh, wow, I didn't even think about that! I guess I had been assuming that Jared hadn't told anyone until he told Elizabeth, but now I don't know why I assumed that. You're right that it would be strange for him to keep it from Kate when his assumption is that they have a great love story going and will be together forever. Huh.

What do you think?

-J

Re: Did Jared ever tell Kate about the murders?

[alisonx]

The thought literally only occurred to me as I was writing the second to last reply....

Re: Did Jared ever tell Kate about the murders?

[treonb]

That's how I understood it. That Jared had told Kate, and that's why the Center did not want any investigation into the matter. Claudia wasn't told and therefore teamed up with P&E for their own investigation.

Btw, I wonder what happened to that boyfriend Claudia had blamed.

Re: Did Jared ever tell Kate about the murders?

[jae]

Wow, you're right that that would explain why the Center initially abandoned their investigation. So yeah, that must be how it happened. I don't know why that didn't even occur to me!

As for the boyfriend, if she was having Philip and Elizabeth secretly doing the investigation, I can't imagine she was passing those suspicions on to the Center. And if she'd killed him herself, she would have mentioned that to Philip and Elizabeth for the sake of their investigation. So the boyfriend is probably still safe (although she probably slipped out of his life once she realized she'd told him too much).

-J

Re: Did Jared ever tell Kate about the murders?

[alisonx]

So why wasn't Claudia told even though she was their handler?

Re: Second generation illegals

[sistermagpie]

I got the impression the KGB knew all along who killed them (or at least soon after, probably from Kate) because that's the reason they weren't investigating. They went straight into cover-up mode without telling Claudia, which is why she launched her own investigation.

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

See, when they covered it up to make it look like a normal murder, we assumed it was just so no suspicion would be drawn. And even more so this would be applicable if Jared was the killer. The problem is JARED WAS THE KILLER. A highly unstable kid who killed his own parents who were loyal illegals but the KGB still thinks he will be a valuable asset further down the track? They can't possibly think this scenario was a "good outcome" or one that could be salvaged, so why promote Kate? Why leave Jared susceptible and vulnerable. I guess they really did trust him as a second generation illegal and they saw he had shown his loyalty (by killing his parents) ....so really the moral of this story is, if Paige killers her parents and becomes a valuable 2nd Gen Illegal, she will have been the Jared that never was.

Re: Second generation illegals

[sistermagpie]

Yes, the fact that they seem to have just decided that the easy solution is to make sure the parents do the recruiting makes it seem like they're being pretty reckless about it instead of really analyzing the situation. Clearly this program isn't being done by people who have the kind of skills the actual Illegals do in psychological manipulation.

And again, I feel like that might be part of the point of Kate's shortcomings as a handler. P&E's (especially P's) dissatisfaction with her manner didn't have any big payoff like Kate getting them killed or turning out to be inept, but maybe it does lay the groundwork for things not being run quite as well as they need to be run.

Re: Second generation illegals

[treonb]

I think what set me off on that track was Claudia saying "First soon, you need to tell her who you really are, who she really is, get her ready. Then develop her until the time is right for you to tell her that she will join our ranks"

I'm pretending that did not happen.

Re: Second generation illegals

[alisonx]

Did anybody else find Claudia's last speech quite opposing.

She first says "I want you to know I had nothing to do with this. I did not know about it. i would have fought it....it was unforgivable to go behind their backs" She is referring to sending Kate behind their backs.

Then she goes on that these are the KGB orders, and your children are yours but they're not just yours. They belong to the KGB and to the world. Essentially, this last part is kinda saying "comply with the KGB...or else" ... right? there's not really an option to say no to these people. So she's criticising both E/L and P/E for saying no, AND criticisng KGB for sending Kate even when E/L said no.....

Major nitpicking goin on here :(

Claudia's speech at the end

[jae]

Okay, I went back and rewatched that bit, and these were Claudia's exact words:

It was unforgivable for them to go behind Emmett and Leanne's backs, but don't forget what's at stake in this war. A second-generation illegal could change everything, and for the right child, it could give their life a meaning and a purpose that they could never get in this country. [...] Paige is your daughter. But she's not just yours. She belongs to the cause, and to the world, we all do. You haven't forgotten that, have you?

You can read that as "comply with the KGB or else," but you can also read it as something more philosophical, something more like: "everyone exists on this planet to make things better, that is our collective purpose." Looking at the exact words she used, I think her actual meaning was something closer to the latter than the former. Paige doesn't "belong to the cause" simply by virtue of being the child of illegals, she belongs to the cause because she's human. To Claudia, bringing Paige into the fold would simply be nurturing the best things about her, the things that would make her most useful to the cause that's the actual important thing in the end.

I do think there was an implied threat in her words, but I don't think the threat was "comply with the KGB or else," I think it was "if you don't comply with this, it will be assumed that you've become ideologically tainted by living in the U.S., and that will mean bad things for you in the long run." And that's not a threat that's inconsistent with her belief that it was wrong to go behind Emmett and Leanne's backs to recruit Jared.

-J

Re: Claudia's speech at the end

[alisonx]

Yeah, I do agree that she wasn't being overtly threatening, just trying to convince Philip and Elizabeth that this was the best thing for them, for Paige, for their cause and for the greater good.

I think it ties back into what options the KGB is truly giving Philip and Elizabeth. They are expected to comply with every task the KGB gives them in terms of information needed, and they've never really deviated from orders in a way that is openly oppositional.

In this instance, Claudia is saying that Emmett and Leanne said no, but the KGB still pursued and she thinks this was 'unforgivable.' But she doesn't really leave room for Philip and Elizabeth to say no, and kind of implies that if they did say no, the KGB would still pursue it behind their backs, which is what prompted Philips visit to Arkady saying "If our organisation ever goes near our daughter without our permission, my wife and I are finished." Okay my argument isn't very strong, because it's not like Claudia would say "Oh so here's the dealio and you're allowed to say yes or no as your please." Nah it's not openly hostile in any way I don't think.

Re: Second generation illegals

[(Anonymous)]

I think Claudia is saying, no matter what she thinks personally, these are HER orders.

What I wonder about is how much choice Paige would actually have. Let's assume for a moment that P&E would agree (or at least go along with) an effort to recruit Paige. After P&E would reveal their true selves, which Claudia said should happen soon, what's next? I think Claudia suggested that they 'get her ready.' What would that involve?

CA

What could "getting her ready" involve?

[jae]

My guess (and this really is just conjecture): dealing with the identity-related fallout, ideological education, teaching them enough about their work to build up a certain respect for it without scaring her off. Things like that.

-J

Re: Second generation illegals

[katiac]

As for the third article, I think what set me off on that track was Claudia saying ""First soon, you need to tell her who you really are, who she really is, get her ready. Then develop her until the time is right for you to tell her that she will join our ranks""

That felt a little too uh... unnuanced? for what this sort of situation would require to me too. But then again, Claudia tends to take a hard-line approach like Elizabeth and sometimes when under pressure talks a tougher line than she might actually wind up needing.

Re: Second generation illegals

[quantumreality]

Incidentally, given the Charlie Foxtrot made out of the Russian economy post-1991 for about a decade, I can actually see it as being easier for a second-generation 'illegal' to get pulled in as a sort of "fight for the underdog" thing. There are a fair number of Russians who think the USA purposely undermined the Russian economy to make it impossible to ever have another world power besides the US.

Re: Second generation illegals

[jae]

Oh, sure, I can imagine scenarios like that, but my point is that the particular angle on their recruitment would have to be tailor-made for the particular child. The KGB wouldn't just expect everyone to go for that, no questions asked--they're not that naive.

-J

Re: Second generation illegals

[sistermagpie]

Totally agree with this. In many ways the issue isn't yet about Paige's own abilities yet, though that's always been part of it on some level--there the starting positions seem to be that Elizabeth has always worried that Paige isn't prepared to deal with much because of her fragile personality and her soft upbringing (lots of projecting there, of course) while Philip just recently expressed a lot of confidence in her abilities for survival (could be some projection there too, of course).

But first there's I think the question of recruitment in general. For Elizabeth, the thing that she said to Philip that had her interested was the idea that Paige was looking for something to dedicate her life to so maybe this was right for her. Like she was already doing it, so she was just giving her the correct thing to replace her mistaken desire for the church.

Where as Philip, based on interviews with MR at least, seems to see this as interfering with who Paige "really" is. He sees it more as manipulation. So there's other questions besides how they'd approach her. Elizabeth's pov on Paige isn't wrong, and that in some ways clears that first hurdle of "Is she even a candidate?" If Paige were some young woman working as an intern in a government facility Philip, too, would see her as a good target. He just recoils from targeting his daughter as he would a recruit where as Elizabeth doesn't see it as targeting and attacking, but guiding and recognizing their similarity.