Episode discussion post: "Echo"

[jae]

Aired:
21 May 2014 in the U.S. and Canada
25 May 2014 in Israel
7 June 2014 in the UK

This is a discussion post for episode 213 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season two, episode thirteen.)

Original promo trailer

"The Americans Season 2 Episode 13 Promo - Echo [HD] The Americans 2x13 Promo" (Watch on YouTube)

Episode recaps

From Grantland
From Time
From the Washington Post
From Rolling Stone
From the AV Club
From Hitfix
From IGN
From the Huffington Post: Karen Fratti, Maureen Ryan
From Vulture
From Variety
From the Tampa Bay Times
From Sound on Sight
From Collider
From Paste Magazine
From Gawker
From the Cloture Club
From tv.com
From tvrage.com
From Headline Planet
From spoilertv.com (in French)
From TV Ate My Wardrobe
From GAMbIT Magazine
From showratings.tv
From Comments Enabled
From Boob Tube Dude
From Unreality Primetime (UK)

Comments

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

Yes, exactly. Elizabeth isn't close to anybody who isn't all in for the cause. In some ways this is the answer to all her problems. Also it's totally in character for her to forbid something (We swore!) and then change her mind when it's more in line with her thinking.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[lovingboth]

So quickly?? After risking Philip by sending him off to meet Arkady?

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[jae]

Philip didn't say to Arkady: "Don't go near our daughter or my wife and I are out," he said "Don't go near our daughter without our permission or my wife and I are out." It's not a change in perspective, it's a beginning to the conversation they haven't had yet.

-J

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[lovingboth]

That's clutching at straws :)

They've had the discussion with Claudia, where she doesn't disagree with Philip saying "that is not an option", and both go 'no way' ("That's for us to decide") to being ordered to tell Paige and allow her to become an agent. They were told that E&L were asked prior to Jared being recruited and can be confident that they'll be told closer to it happening, if only to check that they've followed orders and told her.

You do not risk Philip (= both of them and the lives of their kids) to say 'we're thinking about it'. This is him - them - saying "no", even though it's wrapped in a 'maybe'.

Oh, and why does Philip use 'his' name, rather than his agent codename?

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[alisonx]

Plus Philip's really horrified face and the way Matthew Rhys internalises "we swore. we swore...it would destroy her"

Also sistermagpie I love this!
Also it's totally in character for her to forbid something (We swore!) and then change her mind when it's more in line with her thinking.
I like the idea that this is her way of connecting with Paige and becoming closer to her. In the pilot she was saying they could be socialists, they needn't be like all the other American children, but in that conversation they both vehemently oppose a) telling their children b) involving their children in this in any way. Look at how torn Philip was at using Henry at a brush pass - the idea that they could lose their lives is not something a parent wants, even if it is for their cause. Although Elizabeth does really value Paige's "passion" ehhhh idk

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

I thought the "without our permission" was very clearly saying not to pull what they did with the Connors. He was making sure they backed off, not telling them his children would absolutely not be Illegals ever--though I think for Philip that would be the next step.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[jae]

I actually wasn't fanwanking at all--that was how I heard it in the episode, both on first viewing and on second. The message wasn't "no," but it wasn't "we're thinking about it," either. It was "don't you dare do what they did with Jared (i.e. recruit him without their permission), or else we're both willing to defect." That was the absolutely crucial thing to get across in that moment, and the thing Philip and Elizabeth are both on the same page about.

-J

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

Right--P&E were on the exact same page to start with: they didn't want the Centre going behind their back. It was "their decision" as Elizabeth said. Now they have to talk about it.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[katiac]

Yes, and really there have been a good many things they probably haven't agreed about over the years. They know each other and trust each other well enough to feel safe there. They don't completely trust the Centre in the same way. Even if Elizabeth swears she would die for the cause, there's a point at which she doesn't entirely trust the Centre and every single person involved in that chain in the same way she and Philip trust each other--even when they disagree.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

I don't know about it happening so quickly, but I'm just saying in general there are things to appeal to Elizabeth in this idea.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[georgley]

Yeah, I don't think Elizabeth has decided for sure that they should tell Paige. I think at this stage it's just something that she thinks they should at least discuss.

Plus, if it is an order what options do they have? What are the consequences if they don't do it?

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[jae]

Yeah, I also don't think Elizabeth is completely convinced at this point. She used the word 'maybe'. She also looked excited by the idea, but also scared. Philip has made up his mind, but she hasn't yet.

-J

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

And it makes sense that this would be something she'd have to talk through for all the things that have been leading up to it--Paige *does* want to believe in something and Elizabeth has openly said she's just looking for it in the wrong place in the church. Since Elizabeth gets a lot of strength and comfort from her beliefs, she doesn't see it as being a bad thing. For her to say they can't discuss it at all would be like questioning everything she does. She doesn't look on her work the way Philip does.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[lovingboth]

What are the consequences if they do it, and Paige isn't interested? You can't undo coming out, and if she doesn't sign up, she has to be neutralised, one way or another.

That's likely to be by a fatal 'accident' - if she disappears, far too much attention is going to be paid to Philip and Elizabeth, especially with their FBI friend pulling strings to help find her - and what's that going to do to their loyalty?

Paige's potential interest in working for the KGB

[jae]

I can't imagine the KGB would be so stupid as to put themselves in that position. We've seen them vet potential agents for recruitment on the show and then back off if there was found to be no way in; there's no reason to think they'd be careless enough to approach Paige in the first place unless she had been so thoroughly prepared in advance that they knew for sure she would be recruitable.

-J

Re: Paige's potential interest in working for the KGB

[sistermagpie]

To be fair, Claudia does imply doing exactly this when she tells P&E to basically tell Paige who they really are first, then get her ready, and then tell her she'll be working for them. It's a really silly way of putting it that makes no sense.

Claudia's speech at the end

[jae]

These were Claudia's exact words on that:

What happened with Jared was a tragedy. Last year the Center started a program to develop officers they're calling second-generation illegals. You do tremendous work, but your cover would never hold up to the type of background investigation required to join the CIA or the FBI. However, one of your children, born to an American citizen, would pass one of these investigations. The Center asked Emmett and Leanne to bring Jared into the fold. [...] The Center, they want Paige to be next. [...] Those are your orders. First, soon, you need to tell her who you really are, who she really is. Get her ready. Then develop her until the time is ready for you to tell her that she will join our ranks.

I don't see her saying that Philip and Elizabeth are being asked to recruit her, just to help by doing the prep work of first telling her that they are spies, and then, over time, laying the groundwork for her to eventually be recruited. She's not specifying that it will be them who will be asked to recruit her, or run her (and I can't imagine that's what she meant).

-J

Re: Claudia's speech at the end

[lovingboth]

The second Paige knows that they're spies, she can ruin them by telling someone. They know she tells Pastor Tim stuff. They also know she's often very annoyed at them. They also know that all she has to do to get them in deep shit - to get out of there as she said to Henry - is run across the road and tell Stan.

They've just seen that Jared was prepared to murder his family. There have been 'I hate you' times when Paige would certainly have been willing to turn them in. She would probably regret doing so later, but get her in the right mood and she'd do it..

.. and yet they'd tell her because they were told to? Nah.

It'd also be stupid to tell them to do so. What we're being asked to believe is that someone in the KGB thinks its worth risking one of their surviving and effective pairs of illegals now in the hope that, seven or more years down the line, their daughter might be able to join the FBI or CIA.

Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[jae]

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, Philip and Elizabeth aren't idiots, and there's no chance they'd tell Paige--or anyone--their secrets unless they could be something close to absolutely sure they could trust that person not to betray them. You might scoff at that and say that risk is never worth taking, but if you say that, then what you're saying is that their job isn't ever a risk worth taking. Because every single person involved with the KGB who knows where they live and what they really look like could betray them if they wanted to--Claudia, Arkady, Nina, or on the American side, people like Gregory. Any one of those agents could betray them. Part of the spy game has to be calculating the risks of divulging secrets and being able to figure out when those risks are minor enough to take them. Otherwise their work amounts to nothing but hiding in the dark and trying to stay alive.

For that matter, yes I believe that someone in the KGB could think that's worth it, because it really happened, in real life, to real people. What part of that isn't clear? Questioning whether or not that's possible is like questioning whether space flight is possible. There are certainly things about the show that don't reflect real history, but this isn't one of them.

-J

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[lovingboth]

The number of KGB people who know their secrets is very low. Even Oleg had to pull strings to sufficient clearance. If you can't trust them, you give up now, because they're the ones ordering you about.

Their assets know as much as they are told or, in the case of Larrick, have the skills to find out. It is indeed a risk: Annelise is not happy at the moment, for example, and we all know Martha is another one who could go very wrong. What makes the risk worth taking is that they have benefits now, and there will be a cost to them if they say what they know.

Telling Paige has zero benefit now - she's merely a long-term bet - and there's no big cost to her if she turns her valuable parents in. (She loses her parents, but she already wants rid of them and, in this case, has just discovered that they were even worse than she thought. She's not going to prison or losing her job or... She'd probably become a celebrity.)

If you're sensible and you want a 2ndGen programme, you start with the less valuable illegals somewhere in the Midwest, or run that adoption agency, or honeytrap some US servicemen in West Germany into marrying and naturalising an agent and having (US) kids with her, leaving them with her while he's off on duty ("Your father thinks murdering peasants in Central America is more important than being with you"), or...

You don't start with the kids of your most valuable illegals, because the risk analysis is too unfavourable. They are one teenage tantrum away from being lost forever. As we and they have seen.

I am prepared to believe that someone is not being sensible :)

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Paige wants to be rid of her parents at all. She can complain about wanting to get rid of them because she's completely secure of them. Of course she might snap like Jared did, but so could kids who were adopted.

Also, I don't know if they have Illegals in the midwest. The show even said they didn't have much of a presence in California, much less Indiana.

I'm not sure why the orphanage idea is so much better. Why are American orphans suddenly less likely to turn in their parents than biological children?

Mostly what it comes down to is that this is what actually happened. No phantom adoption agencies or starter Illegals or kids raised outside the US with technical citizenship, just kids of Illegals brought into the fold when they're, I believe, teenagers. I think it just comes down to the dynamics between the people involved.

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[(Anonymous)]

Why would they tell her now, as Claudia has suggested? If the KGB is not ready to actively recruit her at this moment, she would become a big risk by knowing her parents' story.

Claudia's comment about telling her now and then getting her 'ready' to be recruited suggests that Paige would welcome the knowledge that her parents were spies and that she had been lied to for her entire life. Not to mention that her patriotic loyalties were opposite to her parents.

This doesn't make sense to me.

CA

Re: Could the second-generation illegals programme really happen (reprise)?

[katiac]

and there's no big cost to her if she turns her valuable parents in. (She loses her parents, but she already wants rid of them and, in this case, has just discovered that they were even worse than she thought. She's not going to prison or losing her job or... She'd probably become a celebrity.)

I think lots of times teenagers say they "hate" their parents or "can't wait to move out" but don't really mean it. I know I never did. Paige and Henry really have a pretty cushy life. Paige has two parents who love her. She has a comfortable room full of nice clothes, pretty shoes, books, posters, free time to do as she pleases, the freedom to pursue her interests... yes, she's rebelling right now, but saying you want to be rid of your parents is very different from the prospect of actually losing them.

I think Paige is naive in some ways, but not *that* naive to actually consider turning them in. Think of what happens the moment she does. She gets to set foot in that house again only to pack up her things to go to foster care. She has no other family. No relatives. Does she even get to stay with Henry? Will Henry ever speak to her again if she destroys their life by telling on their parents? They suddenly have no money. No family ever again. No future. No security. An adult Paige, eh, I could see that going either way, but a 14 year old Paige I have a hard time seeing ratting her parents out simply because kids in general tend to not rat their parents out even when their parents are doing something really bad *to them* because the disruption to their security and the threat of the unknown is so terrifying, and that's not even the case here.

And that's before we even get into the emotional dependence Paige certainly has on both her parents, which, although she may deny it with dumb statements to Henry to look like an all-knowing big sister, is absolutely going to be a factor. I can't even picture a scenario where her first reaction is to run across the street to Stan Beeman and tattle. Preacher Tim, who knows, but I imagine P/E would be careful to make sure Paige isn't still in a stage of complete gaga-ness over him before saying anything.

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[katiac]

Right. I mean, it's obvious why they don't want the Centre pursuing Paige independently of her and Philip--control over the kids is always something the two of them have had and shared, even when they've disagreed on things hugely and had to negotiate big differences in viewpoint. And you're right that on the one hand there's all these huge negatives tied to doing it, even from Elizabeth's perspective, and some huge negatives tied to not doing it, even from Philip's perspective.

They're kind of up a creek!

Re: Paige and Elizabeth

[sistermagpie]

Yes, the thing is that even if they agreed they'd still be nowhere closer to knowing what to do. The shock/hurt for Philip is that he's alone in his instinctive reaction. Not that Elizabeth is jusy on board with the Centre's agenda or has chosen the cause over the kids but she doesn't see them as totally in conflict the way he does.

And with this show there's a chance they'll get into the many issues involved in their positions. It's not like Philip's just some American guy protecting his kids from crazy Commies. He's committed to this cause for himself.