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theamericansAired:
4 May 2016 in the U.S. and Canada
This is a discussion post for episode 408 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season four, episode eight.)
Original promo trailer
Overnight reviews
From Vulture (and here)
From Vox
From Hitfix
From the AV Club
From Slant
From the LA Times
From the Wall Street Journal
From the New York Times
From USA Today
From Entertainment Weekly
From Variety
From Collider
From tv.com
From Indiewire
From TV Equals
From Hidden Remote
From the Examiner
From Mstarsnews
From Den of Geek
From The Young Folks
From the Observer
From Inverse
From Celebrity Dirty Laundry
From Showbiz Junkies
From Flavorwire
From Uproxx
From Hidden Remote
From IGN
From TV Fanatic
4 May 2016 in the U.S. and Canada
This is a discussion post for episode 408 of The Americans, intended for viewers who are watching the show on the U.S./Canadian schedule. (Feel free to dive in to the discussion even if you're coming in late--and you should also feel free to start a new thread if it seems too daunting to read through what's already been posted first. If you're reading this at a point where you've already seen subsequent episodes, though, please take care to keep comments spoiler-free of anything that comes after season four, episode eight.)
Original promo trailer
Overnight reviews
From Vulture (and here)
From Vox
From Hitfix
From the AV Club
From Slant
From the LA Times
From the Wall Street Journal
From the New York Times
From USA Today
From Entertainment Weekly
From Variety
From Collider
From tv.com
From Indiewire
From TV Equals
From Hidden Remote
From the Examiner
From Mstarsnews
From Den of Geek
From The Young Folks
From the Observer
From Inverse
From Celebrity Dirty Laundry
From Showbiz Junkies
From Flavorwire
From Uproxx
From Hidden Remote
From IGN
From TV Fanatic
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no subject
Date: 2016-05-05 03:36 am (UTC)I'm new to this community and thought I'd post some quick impressions before I head off to bed.
First off, I was definitely not expecting the time hop! I'm really curious to see what has evolved / changed in the 7 months. Clearly, Paige has taken Elizabeth's words to heart, and is not at all pleased by it.
I adored the Elizabeth / Paige scene, because I feel like it's been a long time coming. Elizabeth has held back alot in terms of her feelings about what Paige did, and while I felt sympathy for Paige in that moment, the great thing about this show is that it has me rooting for characters whose actions normally I wouldn't agree with...Elizabeth's right that Paige's "operation" (although she isn't quite using that word with Paige) can't be at the whim of Paige's moods. There is too much riding on the fact that Pastor Tim and Alice stay quiet. I also loved the conversation because it also just felt like a very real conversation parents have with their children about responsibilities that you have when you get older (like deciding I'm just not in the mood to go to work today etc.)
And ahhhhh...finally, Elizabeth went to EST. I love how they kind of set us up for thinking that Elizabeth does get it (and I think to an extent she does) but then she totally ruins the conversation with Philip when she criticizes it for the consumerism. I wonder if she ever went back during the 7 month period?
And I love how they both kind of just screamed at each other in a very brutally honest and hurtful conversation that was so different from the previous episode's "are you crazy? ...I love you" one. That conversation brought up alot of issues they hadn't ever truly discussed and this one too I feel with the mention of Gregory and Irina. The pain they were both feeling individually at the beginning of this episode and their inability to express that to one another in a way that was helpful and productive just filled this episode with sooo much tension that really came together nicely when they had that argument.
I like how it was broken when Elizabeth had to dispatch of Lisa and Philip's concern for her wellbeing took over in the apartment with Gabriel...I just feel the whole Martha situation and Pastor Tim situations had been taking their toll on both of them and they really were reaching the breaking point and it was nice to see Gabriel realize that as well.
Gabriel suggesting a vacation of all things was not something I had anticipated (also nice that they finally mentioned that yes, the Kimmy operation is still happening) and was totally unexpected but welcome -- and it just feels like it makes sense in terms of the plot. I don't know if those two could have kept going on any longer as they were without making some big misstep.
I'm curious how much they have worked on their own individual wellbeing and well as their relationship with each other and with their kids (looks like the Paige relationship is still strained though understandably since she is far from on vacation when it comes to operations) in the 7 month period. Going into what I'm sure the next drama will be, I really want to know where their heads and hearts are at.
Also, I loved the Gabriel/Claudia conversation (I think I just loved about every conversation this episode -- so many good one-on-one moments) where Gabriel is also feeling pressure and Claudia is telling him to stop whining and face reality. It was nice to get more of Gabriel's POV. I don't often sympathize with him because I'm such a Philip fan but hearing the story about what he had to do for the cause when younger really puts him in perspective for me more.
Also Elizabeth's operation with Young Hee should be interesting further down the line as what happened with Martha and Lisa shows us what the end results for these "agents" often are. Especially since Elizabeth seems to genuinely enjoy Young Hee's company in a way I haven't seen her do so before with others. It was nice to see her having fun...although it's always hard to tell how much of that is just faked but it seemed real.
Stan coming in to get beer and use Philip as emotional support when he hasn't really apologized for being an asshole was typical Stan btw.
Also what I loved about the Philip / Elizabeth conversations in this episode was that it highlighted their competing ideologies pretty nicely in a way I hadn't seen in awhile and that felt like a callback to S1: Elizabeth seeing people as agents / Philip more as humans and Elizabeth focusing on the consumerism of EST while Philip is focusing on the emotional benefits.
Also I liked that the Gregory situation was brought up because I think the parallels of the situation is what was weighing down on Elizabeth...she really thought Philip loved Martha the way she loved Gregory but it's definitely not the same and it just brought up all these insecurities for her. (I am hoping those two had another conversation during the 7 month period where they revise some of the hurtful things they said such as "I took you back after blah blah blah" --> that conversation also just felt like a typical couple conversation where a present-day thing brings up all these past hurts and wrongs --> Gabriel being all annoyed at their marital spats to Claudia was too funny).
Anyways, just rambling thoughts. Curious to hear what others thought of the episode!
the argument between P&E
Date: 2016-05-05 06:36 am (UTC)I think you're right about Elizabeth misinterpreting the situation with Martha. And as you mentioned earlier, it is tied in with how they view their work and the people they have to use. The fact that Gabriel needs to bitch with Claudia probably has to do with him never having experienced what a marriage is like. He wouldn't know that couples can argue and still love each other deeply.
general comment
Date: 2016-05-05 06:45 am (UTC)Knowing what we now know about EST (and similar self-help things) Elizabeth is of course right in saying that they just want more money from their attendees. But at the same time it is helping Philip in some way, even if right now it seems to be creating more hurt and doubt within him. It is definitely detrimental to their work, as Gabriel finally realises by the end of the episode.
I don't know what to say about that 7 month skip at the end. It felt a little bit pushed, even though it helped in solving some of the storylines that would have taken ages to resolve otherwise (Gaad, Pastor Tim).
All in all, Claudia is right in saying it's the world that is changing. We know it will, but it will take a few more years. It would be interesting to speculate about Martha's plight during those final years of the Iron Curtain, and also what would happen to her afterwards. Presumably, she would try to contact her parents. But she could never return to the US, because she would be arrested.
Also, Tatiana is BIG TIME LYING. But why? Is she a double agent? Did Martha really reach Cuba? Or did the rat end up somewhere else?
My review
Date: 2016-05-05 07:15 am (UTC)First of all: am very very relieved Martha actually made it out of the country alive. Doesn't mean she's fine, or happy - how could she be, in the circumstances? - , but like I said last week, not killing her off at this point was the twisty thing to do, and it allowed everyone to deal with the fallout without the emotional shortcircuit that a death (no matter whether suicide or murder) would have presented. And Martha: provided we don't get a scene later this season where she's shown committing suicide in Moscow or wherever, I think this was a good exit. (As good as it could be, for her story.) She's gone through the breakdown and despair and emerged on the other side facing her new life with a kind of brittle, stoic courage. No more lies (not even attempted chatter at breakfast by Gabriel or Philip; the utter silence of the opening until they had arrived at the plane was powerful), and her last dialogue with Philip, those few words, exemplified Martha's mixture of emotional insight and delusion: "Don't be alone, Clark."
(Insight, because obviously Philip is lonely , and delusion, because ongoing marital and family crisis not withstanding, he's not alone.)
(It's also showcasing a difference between Martha and Gregory - btw, I am thrilled the Elizabeth/Philip argument later brings him up, after talking about the parallels and contrasts with other fans in the last two weeks! -, because, if you recall, Gregory's parting advice to Elizabeth was "Don't let him make you soft".)
Putting Martha's departure by tiny airplane right at the start of the episode without any further delay or artificial last minute suspense (no sudden pursuit and race to the plane) is exemplary for this show's character-centric storytelling. It also means we get the rest of the episode dealing not just with the fallout from Martha's departure but with the fallout from a lot of accumulating developments.
Philip being physically back home doesn't mean he's emotionally, and after a few aborted attempts at talking on Elizabeth's part we get the first big argument between them of the season, and the first in a long while that's not about Paige. I like the way the episode builds towards it: after the first non-committal non-talking from Philip Elizabeth contacts Young Hee (for no reason other than to hang out with her; the show really makes an effort to establish Elizabeth actually likes Young Hee as a friend, which is so going to end badly), after the second she goes to an EST meeting to understand what the allure is. And then we get the confrontation. The best thing about how it starts is that Elizabeth is dead-on, both with what the appeal is to Philip and then later with her observation/criticism of how the organisation works. (EST to my knowledge wasn't as exploitative or power mad as Scientology, but the principle of getting people to sign on for more seminars, thus spending more money, bringing their friends in etc. sounds awfully familiar.) This isn't just Elizabeth making a routine ideological objection, this is Elizabeth making a valid point, and I think that's why it jolts Philip out of his brooding and into arguing and venting.
It's always good if canon backs you up; so when Gregory was brought up I practically cheered. Elizabeth saying that at least Philip didn't have to send Martha to commit suicide by cop (Martha, in fact, has the fate Elizabeth wanted for Gregory) must have been on her mind for a good while now, but if saying it showcases again Elizabeth's assumption/insecurity about the Clark/Martha relationship, it also finally makes Philip explode about his old insecurity. Calling Gregory "the man you love" is a reminder he's never been sure about Elizabeth's feelings for him. (As several people last week pointed out, she's never told him "I love you" in as many words; she's always phrased it differently, from "I feel like it's happening for us now" in 1.04 to "come home" in Russian, but she hasn't said it point blank, and of course one ongoing tension for the Elizabeth/Philip relationship is her devotion to the Cause.
(One more thing about Gregory: it occurs to me that Elizabeth earlier attempting to be supportive on the Martha matter and getting her description of what Martha was like wrong wasn't just a case of Elizabeth being inadvertendly condescending about Martha, but Elizabeth again making unconscious parallels, because if you think about it, the appeal of Gregory back in the 1960s when their relationship started to Elizabeth probably was just what she assumes about Martha - things were simple with him, straightforward, what he wanted was on the table and she could talk to him about her emotions.)
Next they bring their issues to
DadGabriel, who in turn vents at Claudia, which was such a great little scene, if that phrase makes sense. I treasure each and every one of the Gabriel & Claudia scenes because they always let us know how Gabriel views things when he's not in his handler role with P & E, the insecurities he doesn't show them, but this one had the added bonus of Gabriel bringing up the Stalinist Purges as a formative experience for him again. (Yes, it was classic "They think they have it bad? In OUR youth, we had to...", but with a very The Americans twist.) And it informs the later scene with Elizabeth and Philip because evidently Gabriel's eventual conclusion from this isn't that P & E need to be tougher but that they shouldn't be broken in the same way he was. Last season, it was ambiguous how much of Gabriel's paternal attitude towards Philip and Elizabeth was calculation and how much was real (because they are all trained liars and manipulation is in the job description), but this season, I think, very much comes down on "he does care about them", and never more so than in when Elizabeth shows up in the safehouse after having had to kill one of her assets and he watches Philip (still in the dishevelled state he's in for most of the episode) taking care of her, never mind the marital tension. You can see Gabriel's face softening even before he pulls up the chair, sits down with them and promises he'll get the Centre to back off and give them time to recover. The three of them never looked more like a family.(Sidenote: of course, I was instantly wondering how the show would manage that, given the rest of the season couldn't be about P & E recovering, and this was one of the few instances where a time jump not only worked but was completely necessary. In most shows, "7 months later" would be a bad idea, but not here. Not to mention it helps a bit with the young actors playing Henry and Paige aging rapidly when their counterparts supposedly aren't.)
I already mentioned Elizabeth hanging out with Young Hee; her asset from last season was Lisa, and not so coincidentally, in this episode where Martha leaves alive (if not undamaged) and dead Gregory is brought up, Lisa returns as another illustration of how the people P & E recruit and use for their work can end up. Lisa is a worst case scenario: her husband Maurice is drinking again, took the money she's made by supposed coorporate espionage and left with another woman, Lisa herself is drinking again, and she wants to confess to the police. Unlike Martha or Gregory, her emotional tie to "Shell" isn't enough to keep her from speaking. You know the moment Lisa says "police" how this will end. The exact manner of death is heavily symbolic, too, with Elizabeth hitting her with a bottle and later having Lisa's blood on her. As with Martha, it's not that Lisa didn't make her own bad choices (to return to Maurice, to take the money, to start drinking again), but the fact remains she wouldn't have made them without Elizabeth manipulating her into this situation, and Elizabeth knows it. Her first reaction when she sees in which state Lisa is, the offer to go with her in a meeting, is I think not a handler but a human one. I don't believe Elizabeth ever liked Lisa the way she likes Young Hee, but she felt responsibility towards her. And it was as graphic a reminder of the human cost her work creates as it could get.
Speaking of costs: in the ongoing seasonal subplot for Paige, we get a new mother-daughter confrontation when Paige wants to skip bible class with Pastor Tim, and Elizabeth dispenses with the parental niceties and gives her a crystal clear summary of why that's not an option any more. It was brutal, but I think it was earned, in several senses of the word. And again with the irony: the Centre might have backed off from demanding Paige be prepared for a spy life for now, but Philip and Elizabeth are actually transforming her into one. After the "seven months later" time jump, we seen Paige doing what Elizabeth had told her, reporting to her parents on Tim and Alice. What was once a real relationship for Paige has become a professional one, where she has to fake emotions if necessary, and which she reports on to her
handlesparents.There's a small parallel to the Stan and Philip scene earlier in the episode, in that Stan just assumes now that Philip - but not himself - has apologized, he can go back to confiding into Philip, and Philip visibly has a "I can't believe you" moment but even in post-Martha depression is far too much of a pro not to play along and use the info Stan inadvertently leaks; the confirmation that the FBI was indeed onto Martha. Philip might have started his relationship with Stan for professional reasons, but he had come to treat it as a real friendship until Stan's Sandra blowup; now, he's back to treating it as a professional relationship and faking what he once felt. (Bad Stan.)
One more Stan thing: Agent Gaad indeed loses his job, which is a relief in terms of the show remaining honest within its fictional uiniverse - there's no way Gaad would have believably kept his position at this point -, but is still around to have a friendly chat with Stan in his home, complete with speculation about why Stan hasn't pushed it with the blackmailing of Oleg yet: guilt over Nina. (A reminder that Nina's road to execution started when Stan blackmailed her into becoming an asset; she, as much as Lisa and Martha, is another example of the human price of espionage.) Which hadn't occurred to me, but makes sense. However, said little chat presumably signals that the waiting period in that regard is over.
Tatiana
Date: 2016-05-05 07:26 am (UTC)Re: Tatiana
Date: 2016-05-05 07:33 am (UTC)Elizabeth and Paige
Date: 2016-05-05 11:22 am (UTC)Me too, and after browsing through a couple of professional reviews which reacted to this scene all with exclamations of what a terrible mother Elizabeth is, it was a relief to come here and read your comment!
Yes, sixteen year old girls shouldn't be made to spy on people or fake relationships. But not only would the alternative be killing Tim and Alice (or going to prison), but Paige had asked for the truth, had asked to be treated not as a child anymore, and had created the Tim and Alice situation in the first place. This is the result of her actions as much as it is the result of P & E being spies üer se.
While watching thoughts
Date: 2016-05-05 03:36 pm (UTC)Pointed - and quite reasonable - turning away in bed there.
It still looks to me like this is heading for a suicide. From the detail of her morning to the 'Will I ever see peanut butter again?' look.
(Nice lighting work at the landing strip.)
He's not going to admit that he isn't alone. Or get really involved in that kiss - there's no hug, for example.
They're taking it personally at the FBI and Stan - who did undercover work for years - is rather upset at being on the 'wrong' side of that.
Ha, Philip's now reading EST books at home!
And at the 'You played hockey??' look before she goes out.. to do what she wants to do, even if it is work too. And is honest about some of her feelings with Young Hee.
Ha, at them sneaking into something with the title of 'The Outsiders'.
Eugene Craft
Stan's now popping round again. 'Do you mind if I have a beer? (Your kids drank all mine...)' Poor Stan, all the work stuff and now the divorce is being finalised.
Elizabeth's attempts to cheer up Philip are almost Stan-like in their emotional incompetence.
Nice look from her as she slaps the dinner on the side.
Kimmy gets a mention for the first time this season.
As ever, the question of how much Gabriel can be trusted is very open. I'm surprised it would be thought so difficult to tell Martha's parents that she's alive.
Elizabeth at an EST session! No Philip though. And she's thinking about Philip, not her, when the presenter is talking about the self-imposed prison.
Why would it be a surprise / news that her brother had been called up? Wasn't military service compulsory.
'I see why you like it'. 'But..' - she's right about the manipulation and it being very American. And about Martha being an agent, and her being alive.
Biggest argument they've had? There have been others, but there's a huge contrast between the loving stuff last episode (i.e. yesterday) and now. Even Gabriel can see it.
Elizabeth is taking it out on Paige and that's not going to help anyone.
'Oh, that could be anything' - how clueless can Stan be?
Hello Claudia!
It's been a very long time since we've seen Lisa too. Given that she hasn't been around for ages, it feels a very "Look! Elizabeth dumps assets in the shit too!" clunk. Her solution is going to be to kill her though, isn't it? Can't have her talking..
.. yep.
This episode could be titled 'Everyone gets mad at everyone else. Except Martha.' Presumably its real title is a reference to making big things disappear.
Ha, the Scrabble! And it's rejected.
A very passive 'Lisa's dead too' comment from Elizabeth.
Gabriel sees that Philip cares about Elizabeth. And does what's necessary.
The EPCOT line was obvious.
A rare seven month jump. Paige does not look happy after being dropped off by Tim etc - she's the only one in the family working hard.
This is the sort of episode that many other shows would have at the end of a season, not in the middle.
Sistermagpie's thoughts on first watch David Copperfield
Date: 2016-05-05 06:08 pm (UTC)Which makes me think that one of the many issues this brought up for Elizabeth was that. I loved how impossible P&E find it to come together on Martha. They still don't get where each other is coming from. Elizabeth sees Martha as Philip's Gregory, which makes her make that connection. That sends Philip off on the "disappointment" tangent because Martha isn't his Gregory.
I also wonder if she wasn't thinking about how, okay, Gregory chose his way to die so it wasn't up to Elizabeth. But Philip worked really hard to protect Martha. Elizabeth's worldview didn't allow her to do that for Gregory.
It also called up Philip's earlier frustration in EST talking about the bullies--afterwards he says to Sandra "I just feel BAD." Like he's angry at everyone pointing out how he was right to beat the kid up (not understanding he killed him), how it wasn't so bad. But over and over--loudly--he seems to be trying to tell people his issue is more about the principle. It wasn't that he'd lost Martha, specifically, and felt sad about that. It was that he felt badly about ruining the lives of many human beings--Martha, Gene, Martha's parents. So even while Elizabeth is confronting him openly about Martha she doesn't know he's slipping on a disguise to visit GENE. His remorse just keeps getting driven more underground. The more she demands he straighten up the more secret layers he retreats to.
I also love how Elizabeth still can't talk about Martha without sounding condescending because it's important to her not to put Martha on her level (not just as a wife but as an soldier). Loved how her "she's simple" and "you can talk to her about this stuff" totally echoes the audience's praise of Martha, and how Philip rejects it by saying no, she's not simple. She's complicated. You and everyone else underestimate her. Basically, Martha is not just an accessory or little buddy to Philip who's valuable because of what she provides for him. She was a person just as complex and important and valuable as the spies.
Meanwhile, I think Gabriel's caught that bug too (worse than Glanders!). For the second time he brings up the Purge and his own regrets. The Russian characters are kind of splitting into the ones dealing with this and the "Boo-hoo" crowd. He had to send his own friend to the gulag/death...for what? (I know he was actually defending his actions as necessary, but he's conflicted about it. He and Philip are I think moving out of the adolescent stage of their relationship.)
Elizabeth seemed so desperate to get herself back to that easier pre-pilot time. This whole ep she reminded me so much of S1 when she threw Philip out, and it was fitting they essentially had the same fight about Philip being disappointing/American/soft. Her attempts to shout him into submission didn't work (Dude's been defying the actual KGB for a few seasons now and is way to stubborn to roll over on this stuff)...
...but she laid a much more effective law down on Paige which I admit I found pretty satisfying. Sorry it's a sucky situation, but the reality is the reality here. Paige put her parents' lives in the hands of this guy and when somebody shares a deadly secret with you you have to keep them close. This, btw, was exactly what I envisioned happening when she told. Not because I'm great at predicting where this show will go at all, but because realistically speaking this is the only logical result of her telling that secret. Either she had to destroy her family by telling or be stuck with this guy forever.
It was just really cathartic hearing her lay out the facts--and interestingly, what she was saying was actually pretty much what Philip said early on. She has to think about Pastor Tim's feelings now, not her own. I loved Elizabeth talking about her trying to be precious about them (which also made me think damn, this woman has really developed a command of English!) while Paige is still--STILL!--acting like her feelings are so important. Sure Elizabeth was probably also acting out her anger over Philip, but it was earned here. I've never enjoyed Elizabeth so much as when she was directing Paige to find more shit to volunteer for at that goddamned church and then come home and report. Hope that moment of relief on the phone that one night was worth it!
And again I admit I have very limited sympathy for Paige's woefulness about it in the end. Adults have to fake it, Paige. Someone on Twitter said seeing Paige stuck in Pastor Tim hell was one of the best payoffs in TV history and I kind of agree.
The Stan scenes are so much more interesting post-Glanders and Philip's groveling apology. His "buck up" speech to him was kind of great considering what Martha was facing--and it was also a speech to himself, I guess.
That just made me think, actually, how Elizabeth has these fits of jealousy with Philip, not really liking him to be too attached to people like Martha or even Kimmie or EST ("He won't listen to us, Gabriel. He needs a hotel room full of STRANGERS to talk to!"). Then there's Stan who threatened him physically for hanging out with Sandra, a person he seemed to be able to talk to. So Philip again has these two people he supports a lot who are angry at him for seeming too dedicated to someone else. Then Stan, at least, ends the ep having Philip there to listen to his problems again. Even problems about Sandra. That put Philip back in his place!
Elizabeth, I will say, is much more supportive than Stan. We see her truly trying with Philip and often succeeding. Just in this ep she couldn't do it.
Elizabeth's tearing down of EST, btw. Some people saw her not trying to be mean just as she wasn't trying to cut down Martha by calling her simple, but I disagree. I thought her whole lead up about how she "sees what he likes" in EST had the same tone she used back in S1 to lead up to her Irina revelation. She couldn't wait to point out the pyramid scheme of it all.
She's right about EST objectively, but her reaction to it reminds me of her reaction to the church. She just sees it as a scam for gullible people and can't take the step to understand that even something silly can be valuable to someone. When Philip said "You don't get it" she correctly saw that as an EST trick to make people buy more, but I think Philip honestly meant it more in terms of what he was getting out of it--though it was the one time he really slipped into anything like EST-talk.
It reminded me of one time when I went to a silly New Age-y type thing and wound up having this great epiphany that was really helpful and practical. When I tried to tell a friend about it she just could not stop railing about her contempt for the whole idea. And I wasn't offended at her criticism--I didn't actually believe in the stuff and I even thought I understood why she'd be sensitive to it. It was just frustrating, though, because no matter how clearly I thought I made it that I wasn't pushing any woo-woo, I was just explaining the very practical, helpful thing I discovered and saying the context was funny, she couldn't let me say it. With Paige Elizabeth only found that when she decided Paige was seeking what she would really find in the Cause in the wrong place.
Of course, Elizabeth wasn't just putting it down. I think she was truly threatened and infuriated by what she heard there. Elizabeth loves her cage! In fact, someone pointed out that she later crapped on EST at Gabriel's safehouse, which looks like a prison and has grillwork on the windows, and Philip then walked out of it. (And Gabriel, apparently, walked out of frame leaving Elizabeth alone in the prison--then later Lisa's house also had grill on the windows.)
Also liked Henry's little complaints about his dad not being home and Philip coming there. I continue to disagree with some people who think Martha was some kind of domestic respite for Philip, like when his homelife was bad he got comfort from Martha. I just can't imagine how he got comfort from this woman whose life he was destroying, or how he wanted time *away* from his children to be domestic. Sure he'd stomp off there when he was angry at Elizabeth, but he loves his family.
Jennings fights
Date: 2016-05-05 06:18 pm (UTC)Totally agree. I remember back in S2 when they had that confrontation with the Bible I thought Paige was very much in that adolescent stage where she wants the freedom and respect of being an adult but without the responsibilities that go with it. Iirc, one of the things that made me think that in that scene is when she eye-rolled and complained to Philip when he was so on edge that he roared back at her like he might an adult.
Yeah, I loved this about it. Practically every moment of the argument had one of them saying something that was taken a different way by the other person because they simply weren't fighting about the same things. But ultimately Philip was totally challenging that worldview of Elizabeth's that she was desperately trying to double-down on for herself in this ep.
Yes, they were both saying things they probably wouldn't really agree to if they weren't angry, but I particularly loved that version of events for Elizabeth. That it was about Philip being a philanderer and a liar and her taking his cheating ass back.
Interestingly, too, that Philip focused on the "man you love" being Gregory and Elizabeth being "disappointed" that Philip wasn't somebody else. He wasn't fighting that specific phrasing of events (no mention of him being angry/hurt over her tattling on him or her wanting him back, for instance). Other people have seen Philip as very at fault in that argument for telling Elizabeth she can't think about Gregory, but I didn't think that's what he was saying at all. I thought Elizabeth was actually the nastier of the two in the fight. Philip's arguments weren't really about personal flaws or sins of Elizabeth's as much as they could have been.
The time hop
Date: 2016-05-05 06:38 pm (UTC)-J
P.S. Welcome to the comm! It's good to see someone here from LJ. :)
The first five minutes of no dialogue
Date: 2016-05-05 06:40 pm (UTC)-J
Eugenia Croft
Date: 2016-05-05 06:44 pm (UTC)-J
The Philip and Stan scene
Date: 2016-05-05 06:49 pm (UTC)Of course, it helped that I loved the scene, myself, especially the bit where Stan talks in a veiled way about Martha. "Not enough beer in the world."
-J
Why Elizabeth went to est
Date: 2016-05-05 06:54 pm (UTC)The way I look at it is that she essentially went to est to gather intelligence on her husband. She wants to understand him better, and she's gotten all she can through observing him at home, so she's decided to gather information about this organization that has come to be meaningful to him and imagine him reacting to the kinds of things that were said to her there.
(I'm convinced that's the light in which she heard the "you love your prison" speech, by the way. She was there to learn more about Philip, so she imagined that speech being said to Philip and Philip reacting to it. The audience, however, knows it could just as easily apply to her, just in different ways.)
-J
Re: Jennings fights
Date: 2016-05-05 06:59 pm (UTC)(I also cheered a little that when she brought up Irina, it wasn clearly not the fact that she and Philip had slept together that had upset her most, it was the fact that he had lied about it. I remember discussing that issue when the whole Irina thing came out during season one, and being convinced at the time that that was the real core issue, so it was good to have something to point to now that suggests that interpretation was right.)
-J
The Gabriel and Claudia scene
Date: 2016-05-05 07:04 pm (UTC)I actually sometimes have a little issue with the scenes with Claudia--I often feel cynically like they're partly keeping that character around because she's the only person connected with the show who ever wins awards. But I did unambiguously like this one, for all the reasons you point out. I feel like Gabriel's ongoing relationship with Claudia shows us a side to him that there would be no way to otherwise see--the part of him who feels like he's losing control and can't make his agents see that they need to listen to him. I also loved the fact that there were such clear echoes of the way Elizabeth was thinking about Paige in Gabriel's attitude toward Philip and Elizabeth.
-J
Sympathy for Paige
Date: 2016-05-05 07:09 pm (UTC)Yeah, I had no trouble seeing this one from both sides, but my heart was really very much with Elizabeth on this one. Of course Paige is in a shitty situation, and maybe she deserves sympathy for that, but she can't be just shirking her family responsibilities.
The time I actually felt sad for Paige was at the end, the way she looked so defeated after what would have been seven months of having recommitted to the "Pastor Tim and Alice operation" and clearly having felt terrible about every minute of it.
-J
no subject
Date: 2016-05-05 07:12 pm (UTC)I love that Martha leaving isn't the finale. I mean, I am super sad about it because I really adore Martha, but I think having it all be about Martha's journey to leaving would have been too much a rehash of Nina. This was different. Martha got dignity, and the world's most awkwardly tragic goodbye in her own way, not a rehash of Nina. Both Martha and Philip trying to give the other the comfort they could was really well done.
I think it does look like Tatiana is going to be filling more of the space left by Martha, and I approve of that. But I am not at all sure what I reckon is going on with her. SOMETHING, yes. That it's definitely her brother, no. I mean, I guess it cooould be? (And if it isn't, playing on his grief for his own brother is NOT gonna go down well with Oleg.) My guess is it's set-up for more personal Tatiana things even if it turns out she wasn't literally telling the exact full truth there.
I am trying to work out if I think the David Copperfield thing is brilliant or just too on the nose in a Seriously We See It way. Like, omg, massive honking issues that represent everything about your perspective on the world can be made to look like they disappeared, but really they were there the whole time! And if you were sailing a boat you'd smack right into them! I hear you, DC! (Also, I did not know what he looked like until now and that was disconcerting. What a strange dude.)
And on that topic, oh god, the EST convo and the huuuge fight. I love that they CAN fight without breaking up, but ow that was painful to watch. That was literally all their beautifully illusioned away feelings being DRAMATICALLY REVEALED. They love each other, but this episode was all about the many many ways that does not actually negate all the many issues they had which meant it took them twenty years of marriage to get together in the first place. They DO have super different perspectives, and they have not managed all those years together without hurt. And Elizabeth's talking about Est was the absolute pinnacle of that. I really think she MEANT the first bit: she can see what Philip gets out of it, in her own way. I think she really does understand that this makes him talk about stuff he can't otherwise and that he sees it as helping with something he's struggling with. But she doesn't really understand WHY he wants that. She thinks he should be able to talk to her, because she also clearly thinks his problems with the job are HER problems with the job, at least mostly.
Like, when Philip talked about hockey, my instinctive reaction to Elizabeth's face then was "holy crap, I think Elizabeth thinks the hockey is a lie". And it wasn't. There was literal hockey. He literally misses a thing about the world he grew up in, a part of the none-spy world, and it's literally playing hockey with his family. I was really glad that the Jennings' got to have that at the end.
Even though, HOLY CRAPOLI is Paige miserable. That was telegraphed impressively well in that short bit we got with her. Wow. I was expecting her to turn at least sort of spy... unwilling spy, never. Wow. That is some serious powderkeg waiting to explode right there. She's obviously been shocked by Elizabeth yelling at her (which I also thought was understandable if harsh: this is literally the reason you shouldn't recruit KIDS, right there, omg) but I don't see that lasting forever. Huuummmmm.
I was pleased about the Gaad storyline, even if Stan telling Philip about Martha was just ohgod painful to watch. Interesting times await with The New Guy, I think.
Yeung Hee is clearly not long for this world and I hate that cause I like her too. I like her, and I like that Elizabeth likes her. But like lots of people have also commented, this episode is all about what happens to those 'agents', and it is Not Good. Your odds of surviving the game are not high when you don't really know the rules or even what game you're playing.
The other thing here was change. Philip wanted hockey: he got it, eventually. Paige is growing up and her relationship with her parents and with Pastor Tim has changed. (And I bet her relationship with church in general, actually, but I will have to wait to know more there.) Elizabeth never talked about Gregory: now she has, at least a bit. Philip's son apparently went back home. (Do we still think he doesn't actually exist? I'm still kind of on that train.) And Gabriel is getting them the closest he can to a HOLIDAY, even though they are visibly shocked and he is literally someone who went in and took his own friend to, presumably, that friend's death. All change, and all stuff that people have to deal with as we go along. It's inevitable, and I kind of love how the show dealt with that.
Re: My review
Date: 2016-05-05 07:13 pm (UTC)When he said it back to her and she started to say it was impossible but then stopped herself...I almost wanted to sing the Mary Tyler Moore theme to her as she got on the plane. In S2 the showrunners said they thought it was funny to show that the marriage was actually good for Martha and while it destroyed her life, her Clark experience I think does make her see herself as potentially able to find love. That's why it was the one lie Philip kept up. And yeah, I do love that she recognizes the loneliness in Clark that's real.
ETA: It's possible, though, that Martha was just being kind of Clark and not wanting to leave him worrying about her in Russia, but she really isn't sure she has any hope. That would be a lot like Martha.
So glad I wasn't the only person who thought of exactly that line. Two such different relationships and philosophies and couples and histories.
Ooh! I totally didn't think of that aspect of it but yes, that's great. She almost had to prod him to get him out of that place.
Btw, another thing that struck me during the scene. I wonder if MR IRL does that teeth-bearing thing he sometimes does in scenes where he's angry or if it's a Philip thing, because it just seems to fit the character. In the fight scene there's a moment where he's in that dim hall and he's getting ready to angrily speak. I noticed it in the Bible-tearing scene too, where his mouth does that. In the dim hall in this scene his teeth practically glowed.
Also I couldn't help but wonder if Elizabeth was comparing Philip's reckless defense of Martha to her stoic resignation about Gregory's fate--or even Martha's willingness to relocate to Clark's homeland vs. Gregory's preferring to die. I don't know if she was thinking those things for sure, but since Elizabeth was hitting the "it happens-we lose agents" angle I wondered if underneath she saw it the other way, since Martha and Gregory's fates were in part luck, in part choice by Gregory himself, but also in part down to Philip.
It is also so interesting that Elizabeth's insecurity about Martha is so great and yet she actually is the person who had the long affair, the person who chose someone else over Philip in ways he never did. And she didn't address this during the fight. That is, when he said "the man you love" and "stuck with me" she presumably meant to say "I chose you" by saying she took him back, but didn't really do it. It was the opposite of that scene last week where Philip heard Elizabeth asking if he'd like to be with Martha and he said no, that was crazy.
I hadn't thought of this either but wow, yes, that's so true. Simple is so true about her relationship with Gregory. It wasn't that he was a simple person, nor was she, but they laid out the ground rules so strictly and stuck to them.
Yeah, I thought this was huge, with Gabriel bringing up the Purges for a second time. Also I liked when he spoke to Philip telling him he couldn't get Martha's parents to see her on his own because he feared the kid might just try it. But without the anger.
And great how she was obviously trying to illustrate her stone cold attitude she'd talked about with Philip and instead wound up looking like Philip in Martial Eagle, covered in blood and not realizing it (not to mention not realizing her cigarette was gone). Her attempts to push herself to that place didn't put her back in control, they just pushed her into a sort of shock state.
Loved that her "You know what we should do?" at the end was also a callback to her wanting to take the kids to Canada at the end of The Colonel. After they went through the same fight again.
Yeah, this is so interesting. Stan's gotten a lot of encouragement to be clueless in his personal life. I liked that in this scene he inadvertently gave Philip really valuable info-he's really never done that before except in In Control when he was telling them things that would be in the news the next day.
I wonder what that will mean if he decides to get serious about Oleg.
I loved this, because so much of what's happened with Paige is her living in this bubble of entitlement as a regular middle class US teenager. Despite her panic in a couple of eps when he parents disappeared and she wondered if that was about her, she still just doesn't really get how much is on her here. Of course she thinks she can just skip Bible Study--normally it would be no big deal. (She probably thinks she's making a huge effort to go at all these days.) So Elizabeth drops the facade of gently prodding her or pretending she's not in hot water now.
The way the Lisa arc ended
Date: 2016-05-05 07:14 pm (UTC)The part I did actually appreciate was the way Philip--who's pretty angry at Elizabeth by that point--immediately came over to comfort her when the shit goes down there. It fits in with what we already know about the two of them and the way they always take good care of each other when it comes to some of the more heinous work-related things they have to do and the emotional fallout from it.
-J
Re: Sistermagpie's thoughts on first watch David Copperfield
Date: 2016-05-05 07:16 pm (UTC)Ditto. Though outside of the community, I've only seen "poor Paige! How can Elizabeth be such a horrible mother!" exclamations. Whereas watching, I thought "sorry, Paige, you sort of had that coming".
I also wonder if she wasn't thinking about how, okay, Gregory chose his way to die so it wasn't up to Elizabeth. But Philip worked really hard to protect Martha. Elizabeth's worldview didn't allow her to do that for Gregory.
Well, not for three episodes in a row, but during the one episode Gregory was in danger and on the run, Elizabeth argued with both Claudia and Philip against his execution, and with Gregory himself against his not leaving the country. (I think that was the first of Elizabeth's vain attempts of making people go to Europe?) Now if he hadn't suggested the "suicide by cop" option, and still refused to be extracted, I think she would have eventually caved and accepted death by KGB, though not by Philip. But she clearly did feel responsible for him. (Not that this contradicted her world view. Gregory was a comrade who had worked ceaselessly for the cause; he therefore deserved honor as a hero and life, even if she hadn't once loved him.)
Loved how her "she's simple" and "you can talk to her about this stuff" totally echoes the audience's praise of Martha, and how Philip rejects it by saying no, she's not simple. She's complicated. You and everyone else underestimate her. Basically, Martha is not just an accessory or little buddy to Philip who's valuable because of what she provides for him. She was a person just as complex and important and valuable as the spies.
This reminds me of that late season 1 moment when Clark and Martha had their first fight re: her parents, and then with Martha on the phone to her mother the second one, and you could tell that Philip wasn't entirely faking it. Yes, there were professional reasons why he needed to get out of both situations and he deliberately let these fights with Martha escalate, but it still were real arguments, and he was responding to Martha not just as an asset he needed to coddle so she would continue to spy for him but as a woman with her own personality and flaws he was just having an argument with.
"He won't listen to us, Gabriel. He needs a hotel room full of STRANGERS to talk to!"
Nitpicky correction: "He won't talk to us!" There's a difference there. It's not about Philip not listening, it's about Philip refusing to communicate in the first place, which he did in this episode until they had their big argument earlier.
re: Gabriel's memory, what struck me particularly within the larger context of the show and the episode was the "not you!" he remembers his friend saying. Because I think that was the worst, betraying someone he cared about with the other person knowing the betrayal, in order to survive. And this is, less obviously than in Gabriel's memory of the Purge, but still true in essence, what keeps happening in spy-asset relationships. (Not just among the Russians, as we're reminded by Gaad when he brings up Stan and Nina.) No matter how much the spy comes to care about the asset, and encourages the asset to care for him/her, in the end their own survival comes first. And I think Gabriel knows at this point that if he pushes Philip and Elizabeth further when they're in this state, he's destroying them as surely as he turned his friend over to the state in order to ensure his own survival.
(Sidenote: am reminded again of Orwell's 1984 and the "Do it to Julia" moment that truly breaks Winston. 1984's biggest model, of course, was Stalinist Russia.)
I continue to disagree with some people who think Martha was some kind of domestic respite for Philip, like when his homelife was bad he got comfort from Martha. I just can't imagine how he got comfort from this woman whose life he was destroying, or how he wanted time *away* from his children to be domestic.
This also implies that Martha was in a state to be understanding and comforting all the time. Which she wasn't, because, for good reason, she was feeling more and more afraid and guilty at work. Philip had comfort her a lot of the time. (Again, Martha: a real person, not the human equivalent of a comforting blanket.) (Though I think there are two moments where he uses Martha for emotional relief and got it - one in s1 when he tells Martha about Clark's first marriage and why it didn't work out, and the other when he tells her about his childhood memory.
Re: Elizabeth and Paige
Date: 2016-05-05 07:17 pm (UTC)I so don't get this. Paige wasn't getting it, so Elizabeth put it to her harshly. I thought it was a very long time coming!
Re: The Philip and Stan scene
Date: 2016-05-05 07:21 pm (UTC)You may be right that Philip is simply relieved, but I thought he did sound a bit irritated when telling Stan when the later was in divorce blues how things are going well for him (Stan) actually ("You have your son back" etc.).
Re: Jennings fights
Date: 2016-05-05 07:25 pm (UTC)Oh god yes, but I also love Selenak pointing out that it snapped him out of his wallowing and got him to argue. Because I can get why she finds him so frustrating. Fighting is one thing, having him just be passive-aggressive and quiet is another. Loved when she pointed out that EST was not exactly making him feel better if he was not sleeping or eating. Nice that somebody in the family noticed him looking like shit for so long!
Oh, yes, it was totally that he lied about it. She told him it was okay if he slept with her, that he just had to tell her. He didn't. Boom!
But also interesting that this time she brought her up as "the woman who had your child" as if this was another thing she was angry about. Philip had in fact found out about that right before he slept with her, but as far as Elizabeth knows he only just found out a year later or so. But still, it makes sense that this would come out as a betrayal of Philip's--not only did he have another wife but had another child with some other woman! She hates that even if he's never laid eyes on the kid!